runsongas
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placebo effect
Deep 6 Signature Regulator Review
- Thread starter Scuba J7
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OP
I did not test in full inverted orientation as I was conducting training dives and my student needed my full attention. I did "look up" with it and experienced no water ingress. I had to keep my test short because by the time we were done I was already a popsicle. I will however perform inverted tests on my next dives(mid Jan) as I will be using the Deep 6 set on my backgas. I'll report back after the dives.
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ScubaLab reg tests from 2017. MK17/G260 was not tested this year but probably has been in the past and can be found on the Scuba Diving Magazine website.
NA means regulator did not successfully complete that level
Somewhere on SB, Deep 6 has an explanation for why their regulator did so badly in the ANSTI testing. I'm sure you could find it in "Search". So this is not n=1 anecdotal reporting. There was also a previous thread discussing the merits of ANSTI testing on SB. Personally, I believe some of the testing levels have relevance to diving, some are rather extraordinary.
NA means regulator did not successfully complete that level
Somewhere on SB, Deep 6 has an explanation for why their regulator did so badly in the ANSTI testing. I'm sure you could find it in "Search". So this is not n=1 anecdotal reporting. There was also a previous thread discussing the merits of ANSTI testing on SB. Personally, I believe some of the testing levels have relevance to diving, some are rather extraordinary.
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It was easy to find, here is the MK25 Evo/G260, the G260 may have been tested with the MK17 previously, I don't know
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The MK17/G260 was tested in 2013, reporting was different, it was simply ranked as excellent
I wouldn't call it 'bad' performance as it is still better than several of the other regs tested, but I believe I have quoted the post you are referring to below. Is this it?
Well..here is my take on it, and I did discuss with Scubalab my thoughts. the offered to send me the raw test results but I have not gotten them yet.
The Deep 6 signature is very close to the HOG/Zenith combo. I have some passing familiarity with bothThe Deep 6 second is slightly better with my turbo poppet. Look at the ratings it got compared a couple years back compared to the Deep 6 Signature. It simply doesn't make sense. Sample variation doesn't even explain what I am seeing in the review.
That aside, I KNOW that there were a whole bunch of regs in that review that outperform the unbalanced reg that earned top spot. Yet Scubalabs is saying the unbalanced outperformed them. I've spoken with others on the reg making side including folks that I compete with and they agree...not possible. In particular the at depth part.
The "objective" testing simply doesn't jibe with what I and others experienced in reg testing and design know.
The subjective comments in this case I put much more faith in.
I agree with Chris, the results just don't make sense. The Zenith gets a 5-4-4-4 rating, but the improvements we have made with the Signature somehow resulted in a 5-3-3-0? This doesn't match our performance curves we generated on the ANSTI machine. Unfortunately they have not posted the actual curves for the regs tested so I can't get a better idea of what is going on.
Something to note in reference to the 'objective' testing is that it isn't testing realistic scenarios. The test conditions are highly improbable examples that are unlikely to be seen in a real world condition. I am of the opinion that real world subjective observations are more useful here when making a decision. There are quite a few confounding factors and a larger sample size is needed to provide any statistical significance to the results.
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OP
@scubadada I glad you mentioned that some of their test parameters are extraordinary. Those are some wicked RMVs. I was told by a Scubapro insider that SP does the same with their flow numbers for their regs. They will flow that much, but under extraordinary circumstances, such as constant high pressure and all ports open (or something along those lines).
I used to read all the scubalab tests when I first started diving, then I learned the only way to really know what you will like is to try it. I'm guessing that under realistic circumstances scubalabs tests would not show much if any difference in the regs they tested. I wouldn't mind seeing actual numbers as well for any scientific testing they do, not just stars or dots.
For the record, I'm no fan boy. In fact most of my gear is Scubapro for the simple fact I get a good discount working for a SP dealer. The Deep 6 regs did get what I consider a good written review despite the fact they got less dots than others. I did not read their review before my purchase, but if I did, I would still buy them.
Here is Scubalabs written review
"With its rotating first stage, breathing adjustment, and abundant metal parts with chrome, PVD or Teflon coating, the Signature looks like it belongs in a more upscale price category. The first-stage arrangement, with its rotating turret that offers a lot of options for hose routing, helped the Signature tie for top score in ease of setup. Its purge, with a large, supple cover that allowed precise control and didn’t free-flow even in strong current, was rated best in its category. Divers also liked the breathing control, which was easy to use and made a distinct difference in air delivery, and rated the reg very good for ease of breathing (although some found performance dropped off when face-up). Quiet, smooth and comfortable, and with nice touches for its modest price, the Signature was named by multiple scuba divers to their list of favorites."
I wouldn't say their is a placebo effect in play, but perception is always in effect.
I used to read all the scubalab tests when I first started diving, then I learned the only way to really know what you will like is to try it. I'm guessing that under realistic circumstances scubalabs tests would not show much if any difference in the regs they tested. I wouldn't mind seeing actual numbers as well for any scientific testing they do, not just stars or dots.
For the record, I'm no fan boy. In fact most of my gear is Scubapro for the simple fact I get a good discount working for a SP dealer. The Deep 6 regs did get what I consider a good written review despite the fact they got less dots than others. I did not read their review before my purchase, but if I did, I would still buy them.
Here is Scubalabs written review
"With its rotating first stage, breathing adjustment, and abundant metal parts with chrome, PVD or Teflon coating, the Signature looks like it belongs in a more upscale price category. The first-stage arrangement, with its rotating turret that offers a lot of options for hose routing, helped the Signature tie for top score in ease of setup. Its purge, with a large, supple cover that allowed precise control and didn’t free-flow even in strong current, was rated best in its category. Divers also liked the breathing control, which was easy to use and made a distinct difference in air delivery, and rated the reg very good for ease of breathing (although some found performance dropped off when face-up). Quiet, smooth and comfortable, and with nice touches for its modest price, the Signature was named by multiple scuba divers to their list of favorites."
I wouldn't say their is a placebo effect in play, but perception is always in effect.
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Hi @Scuba J7
See my post #24 for a more complete discussion of the ANSTI testing parameters and correlation with diving Latest ScubaLabs reg test - huh?
The least strenuous test, test #1, has an RMV of 1.32 cf/min. This is nearly 4 times my average RMV over the last 1000+ dives and over twice the highest RMV I have ever had for a complete dive. I don't have a good idea of what my instantaneous RMV might have been during the most strenuous portion of my most difficult dives. The RMVs for the other 3 dives are 2.65 and 2.21 cf/min, quite some breathing. These values are meant to simulate one or 2 divers breathing at up to maximal rates.
So....any regulator that gets a passable score on test #1 is likely to be judged to breathe just fine for a recreational dive, under most usual conditions. When push really comes to shove, their may be some differences between the regs.
The Scubapro regulators I listed rated 5-5-5-5. The Deep 6 Signature rated a 5-3-3-0. The worst performing reg, the Scuba Concepts Honu, rated a 4-0-0-0. The narrative for the Honu reads:
...the Honu’s performance on the ANSTI simulator was rated very good at recreational depths, though it tailed off a bit at our greatest test depths. In the water, the Honu delivered solid performance, with divers rating it very good for ease of breathing in all attitudes except face-up (where it was still rated good), and very good for dry performance in all positions. The second stage is about average in size but quite light, and was rated very good for comfort. Divers found the purge soft and progressive, and the Venturi control did its job well and was easy to use.
Subjective breathing experiences with regulators under easy rec diving conditions does not appear to really differentiate between any acceptable regulator. I appreciate knowing my regulator has a significant reserve, someday I may need it. How much reserve is needed, I don't know. Most divers are completely unaware of ScubaLab testing and dive away happily every day.
See my post #24 for a more complete discussion of the ANSTI testing parameters and correlation with diving Latest ScubaLabs reg test - huh?
The least strenuous test, test #1, has an RMV of 1.32 cf/min. This is nearly 4 times my average RMV over the last 1000+ dives and over twice the highest RMV I have ever had for a complete dive. I don't have a good idea of what my instantaneous RMV might have been during the most strenuous portion of my most difficult dives. The RMVs for the other 3 dives are 2.65 and 2.21 cf/min, quite some breathing. These values are meant to simulate one or 2 divers breathing at up to maximal rates.
So....any regulator that gets a passable score on test #1 is likely to be judged to breathe just fine for a recreational dive, under most usual conditions. When push really comes to shove, their may be some differences between the regs.
The Scubapro regulators I listed rated 5-5-5-5. The Deep 6 Signature rated a 5-3-3-0. The worst performing reg, the Scuba Concepts Honu, rated a 4-0-0-0. The narrative for the Honu reads:
...the Honu’s performance on the ANSTI simulator was rated very good at recreational depths, though it tailed off a bit at our greatest test depths. In the water, the Honu delivered solid performance, with divers rating it very good for ease of breathing in all attitudes except face-up (where it was still rated good), and very good for dry performance in all positions. The second stage is about average in size but quite light, and was rated very good for comfort. Divers found the purge soft and progressive, and the Venturi control did its job well and was easy to use.
Subjective breathing experiences with regulators under easy rec diving conditions does not appear to really differentiate between any acceptable regulator. I appreciate knowing my regulator has a significant reserve, someday I may need it. How much reserve is needed, I don't know. Most divers are completely unaware of ScubaLab testing and dive away happily every day.
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