DIR Class: The Truth Comes Out

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Ryukyu-diver once bubbled...
You seem to put down PADI but, even you admitted that you couldn't control your buoyancy. When was the last time you pratice skills that you were taught or did you give something like the Peak Performance Buoyancy a chance. The point that I am trying to make is like myself, I went to TDI for advance training but I don't bad mouth PADI for the manner in which they teach OW.

Sorry if I m stirring something up here... I think this topic has been beaten to death already on some other threads, but this is just my opinion only.. I haven't taken the DIR-F class yet (will be doing so next week, however!) But strictly percentage wise, PADI releases a lot more unqualified Instructors, and GUE does not, in comparison; that is not to say that PADI has bad instructors, but I have seen a lot of less desirable ones with their PADI black cards; Statistically speaking, compare how many instructors does GUE has and how many does PADI has... On the next thought, like I said, I have been disappointed by a good share of PADI instructors and I specifically am disappointed in PADI in their way of teaching the Dry Suit specialty course. I am also disappointed in their money making program that required you to take Deep Divers specialty (which is a NDL dive to usually 80-100 feet) before you can take their RecTec. I am disappointed with a lot of their Specialty courses… “ohhh, Let’s have a Discussion Specialty!”
That’s why I will not consider any further education courses through PADI. I am sorry. Once again, no disrespect to PADI or their instructors, this is just my opinions and you don’t have to agree with me in any way or form.
 
Sorry if I'm stirring up a topic which has kind of died on this thread, but I wanted to take a shot at the great DIR vs. Computers debate. Keep in mind that this is all my $.02 as an OW diver with exactly 4 dives completed. And in the interests of full disclosure I've already bought myself a reg setup with DIR hoses from fifthd and I'm gradually being swayed over to the dark side of the force -- OTOH, I bought myself a Suunto Vyper from LP as well...

1. Deco/tech diving approximation methods

I just happened to follow a link right before I read through this whole thread to a page which describes some methods of approximating decompression profiles, very similar to the "rule of 120":

http://thedecostop.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=3198

There's a few more rules, but none of them require you to try to do RGBM calculations in your head. I'm sure that with enough experience with producing decompression profiles from a program like d-plan that you can come up with similar approximation rules for any way that you'd like to modify a dive profile -- even for pretty advanced tech diving.

Really this stuff isn't like trying to plan how to launch a rocket to the moon in your head. There actually is a lot of room for error on the conservative side of the decompression plan which you can use to your advantage.

2. The usefulness of approxmation methods

One thing that my undergrad studies in physics and astronomy taught me was that approximation methods were essential. The first thing that you always did when presented with a complex problem was to simplify it by using some kind of approximation method to figure out roughtly what the answer should be. A typical method would be to treat the problem as being perfectly linear. Often you could find a lower or upper bound on a solution. All these techniques were invaluable for catching the case where you'd dropped a minus sign somewhere in your arithmetic and wound up with an answer which was a few orders of magnitude off of your first approximation.

Similarly in scuba diving I could see how approximation methods could be essential for tech diving. If you've only run your plan and a couple of backups that you take down on slates, you are more limited than the person who can adapt their plan on the fly to deal with any contigency that arises. Those contigency plans using approximations may not be ideal, but iif they are conservative approximations they will prevent you from getting bent, which is the only goal which really matters.

3. The desirability of intuition

Another thing which I took out of my physics and astronomy courses is that it is good to have an intuition about what your answer should be. Without even doing any kind of approximation calculation you should be able to know what your answer is going to be to roughly the nearest order of magnitude. This is a skill that comes with practice and experience and is probably similar to the skill that chess players have where they can look at a chess board and tell if it was the product of a legal game or not.

In scuba diving we all probably have a little bit of this ability already. If I present you with a no deco dive on air down to 120 feet with 60 minutes of bottom time a little bell should be going off in your head telling you that something is wrong. I think a strong argument can be made that honing this ability is important.

4. The lack of any existing deco computers

I think its been pointed out by a lot of others that there are no wet compuers which will do the kind of computations you need for the demanding tech diving that the GUE folks do. Since we're talking about the GUE opinion on computers it makes sense to talk about why they've got that impression based on their experience. I'll address my experience later, but as far as GUE goes there simply isn't anything which works for them.

5. The difficulty of decent UI design

I already find the UI of the Suunto Vyper to be a little bit cluttered. I know it is going to take me some time to get used to it. I appreciate, however, the skill in the UI design which was required to get all the information that the Vyper has to offer into that package in a way which minimizes task loaded underwater and gives you the information that you need to know.

I can't imagine trying to design a UI for a tech diving computer, particularly one which could respond seamlessly to any change in plan which could occur underwater. I'm sure that it is technically pretty easy to take GUEs d-plan software and cram it into a watch-sized pacakge. That isn't the biggest problem though. The biggest problem is that if some emergency has come up at 200 feet you don't want to be pushing buttons for 5 minutes on your computer to try to modify your plan. If anyone is going to come up with a computer like this, the major challenge is going to be in the UI design, not in the bubble model that it uses.

6. Reliance on computers is bad

This is true, and an argument which is beaten to death. So far I've been making arguments slanted somewhat against computers, and here's where I actually want to make an argument in defense of computers.

Just because you have a computer it doesn't mean that you're reliant on it. All of my physics and astronomy classes, along with my job taking care of a huge network of computers, has taught me not to trust computers. It has taught me about the desirability of intuition and approximation methods, and the desirability of understanding what the computer is doing and how it could be going wrong.

I think there may be a belief, and certainly there is a conveyed impression, that computers actually cause people to become reliant upon them and that isn't the case. The people have to choose to become reliant upon the computer.

7. My own thoughts

i'm not unhappy at all about buying a $300 "battery box". Since I'm inexperienced I appreciate having the computer there giving me indications of what my ascent rate is, or what my P02 is, and having alarms for if I go too fast or go through my NDL. And if I get into an emergency, while it'd be better to understand deco diving I'm definitely going to appreciate having the "bend-o-matic" telling me tthat I'm probably in trouble and what I should do about it. Yeah, knowing all that stuff intuitively would be much better, but all the studying in the world isn't going to make me an experienced diver right at the start.

it also gives me a check against making bad mistakes. I could drop an hour of a surface interval and miscompute my residual nitrogen and wind up doing a repetitive dive that gets me bent. A computer can help since if I wind up coming up with an answer which radically disagrees with the computer I know that I had better search for why the discrepancy happened.

A compuer also doesn't get nitrogen narcosis. Of course if you are narced then your computer also gets radically less useful. This is another argument in favor of very simple UI design in computers and why creating a UI for a tech computer would be so demanding.

So, I'm happy having bought a computer. I actually do trust it at this point better than i trust my own brain. I can certainly understand why the GUE guys would trust their own brains better than any dive computer though. One day i hope I'm there with them.
 
lamont once bubbled...
Sorry if I'm stirring up a topic which has kind of died on this thread, but I wanted to take a shot at the great DIR vs. Computers debate.

You should have started an new thread instead of replying to this one.
 
lamont once bubbled...
Sorry if I'm stirring up a topic which has kind of died on this thread, but I wanted to take a shot at the great DIR vs. Computers debate. Keep in mind that this is all my $.02 as an OW diver with exactly 4 dives completed. And in the interests of full disclosure I've already bought myself a reg setup with DIR hoses from fifthd and I'm gradually being swayed over to the dark side of the force -- OTOH, I bought myself a Suunto Vyper from LP as well...

Great, use it as a bottom timer and depth gauge and keep using your tables for planning.

And back to the original thread....
 
SeaJay and the others,
Here are the areas that I was referencing the other day. As for those that were sure that I really didn't read the entire thread, you now see what I am talking about. You see, I might be new the the site, but I do a heck of a lot more reading than sounding off like others that really have nothing to say.

Almost all of us were taught to dive "on our knees." Think about it... The first time you did an OOA drill with your instructor, weren't you on your knees? Do you realize how this affects the rest of your diving, permanently?

You were never taught any of this stuff in PADI class. This is all completely new to you."

I used a standard from-the-hip flutter kick, like we're taught in PADI I, and was disappointed (and not surprised) to see that even at five feet, a flutter kick with my big Mares Quattros silted up everything terribly.

The funny thing here... Well, besides the hilarious Ebay comment above (hahahahaa!!!) is that while PADI recommends the buddy system, they do not enforce it. Solo diving is very much condoned (or at least "excused") by several of the agencies.

And now I realize why I thought I was pretty good, and found out that I really wasn't... It's because the "bar" that PADI set was so low that I found myself easily exceeding it. I was the local dive expert! Funny how my attitude changed about that when I was asked to do some pretty basic skills... And found out that I wasn't up to "par." Hard to take, man.

...So let's just say that I went to check out PADI's version of the "bar" again... To verify what I'd learned... That it was very low. It was. Thank you for helping me to see GUE's "bar." Thank God it's up there, and not down there with PADI's. See, Mike, I can say that, even if you can't.

The bottom line is that the solo dive was a huge wakeup call for me. Diving PADI and then diving DIR and then diving PADI again because I wasn't any good at DIR... Well, it was like driving a Yugo, then a Ferrari, and then going back to the Yugo. Before I'd driven the Yugo, I thought I was fast. Going to the Ferrari, I found out that I wasn't so hot after all... But going back to the Yugo was like, "Man, how can I do this?"
...So rather than accept my place in the driver's seat of the Yugo, I decided - actually while I was solo diving and driving my Yugo - that I wanted to drive Ferraris from now on.
All that I was trying to say is that unlike some other divers, I don’t look for reasons to put down or not go thru a DIR class. We need threads like yours in order to clear up the rumors such as “DIR divers can’t dive with diver certified by another aganicy.” This was told to me by a DIR diver back in Okinawa. This is where the PADI stuff should be, IMHO, left out. It does nothing to support your thread of the trials and victories that you went thru during your class and for myself, that is what kept me reading. I really trust that there are no hard feelings and I look forward to seeing you near the bottom some day.
 
Ryukyu-diver once bubbled...
SeaJay,
I really like what DIR / GUE have to offer but another question is, What about the rest of your dive club that isn't DIR certified? You no longer dive with them until they all take the same course as you? That in itself is one reason that I am not DIR. I enjoy diving way too much to limit myself to only divers certified by the same ones that certified me.
Ya know, yesterday I ran in to a post I made 7 months ago when I was new on SB, and I realized that my thinking has really changed (grown?). I made some derogatory comment about tec divers being too good to enjoy just diving.
Since then I've been fortunate enough to dive with some DIR divers. I am NOT DIR (dive with BC, computer, standard hose, split fins, pony bottle, solo, etc.). These people seemed happy to dive with me, didn't ever make me feel "below" them and were tons-o-fun to go playin' with the fishes with. They never tried to push their opinions on me, but the excellence of their diving abilities spoke for themselves.
There are big-mouths of every kind on this board (like me), and if a person is looking for a reason to dislike a specific group of divers, it's easy enough to find one. I think it's easier to form an opinion first and go looking for evidence to prove it then to start out with an open mind and let the truth find you.
At least, that's my opinion...
 
Rick Inman,
I am really not sure if you were talking to me on that one or making a comment supporting what I just said. I don't post as much as I read...God gave us two ears and one mouth. this is one thing that I have found that I do dislike with this site. You become a higher ranking member just by putting out more post. Either way I feel the same way you do on this one. "I said what I ment and I ment what I said" (Popeye).
 
Ryukyu-diver once bubbled...

All that I was trying to say is that unlike some other divers, I don’t look for reasons to put down or not go thru a DIR class. We need threads like yours in order to clear up the rumors such as “DIR divers can’t dive with diver certified by another aganicy.” This was told to me by a DIR diver back in Okinawa. This is where the PADI stuff should be, IMHO, left out. It does nothing to support your thread of the trials and victories that you went thru during your class and for myself, that is what kept me reading. I really trust that there are no hard feelings and I look forward to seeing you near the bottom some day.

Nope, no hard feelings at all. :)

Thanks for pointing all of this out.

For the record, if this came across as defaming or otherwise "putting down" the largest and arguably most successful scuba-certifying agency on the planet, then let me correct that now: I meant nothing derrogatory in the words that I said above.

This, of course, offers a good explanation of why I had no idea what you meant when you said that I was "putting down" PADI.

I wear a Citizen watch every day. In comparing it to a Rolex, it may sound like I'm putting the Citizen down by comparing it to the pricey, more extravagant Rolex. Yet, I don't wear a Rolex every day. I have them both in my dresser drawer, but my watch of choice is a Citizen. I prefer the simpler style, the more functional things that it does, and the lack of a stigma that follows me when I wear the Rolex.

Similarly, I would argue that it's true that PADI taught me to dive on my knees... And that the "from-the-hip" flutter kick taught in OW was not the most efficient or careful method of propulsion.

Nonetheless, PADI was the "easy" way into diving. Let's face it... There are a whole lot more McDonald's hamburgers and Ford automobiles sold every day than caviar and Mercedes-Benzes... Frankly, I am glad that I did not wait until GUE had their "open water" certification available... I am GLAD that I learned to drive in a Buick LeSabre. But that does not mean that Lexuses and BMWs aren't better automobiles.

IMHO, if I were asked, my PADI training left a lot to be desired; but it did what it was supposed to do: Get me in the water as a certified diver and allow me to pursue a passion I found in diving. I do not feel that it was in vain, and I have not forgotten my diving "roots."

To me, taking multiple PADI or NAUI specialties is like learning the McDonald's menu by heart... But by no means is it a complete list of all of the food available to you and me.

DIR was never meant "for the masses." JJ himself has mentioned this countless times. Becoming DIR is a much more in-depth system of diving, and requires considerably more committment from the diver involved.

...So I have no interest in "putting down" PADI, although I certainly would like to see the agency take a much more in-depth approach to training, and offer much more in terms of education.

...But McDonald's doesn't serve pizza... And it doesn't serve Italian or Mexican, or even French foods... And yet all of those are some of the most wonderful things; to ignore them in favor of McDonald's all the time is a disservice only to yourself. How would you feel about buying a $35 filet minon at McDonald's? Or buying a "German engineered" automobile from GM? Some things just don't go together.

PADI's "marketshare" in the diving community is to get people's feet wet - literally. I don't think that's a bad thing at all.

...But for those of you who are looking for a more in-depth approach, and one where you can dive further and longer and "more extreme" while simultaneously being safer... Well... That's where GUE comes in.

Lexuses weren't meant "for the masses." Neither is GUE.

If you translate that as feeling that I'm conveying that one is superior to the other, then so be it. Truly, I feel that there is a place for both. (Or for that matter, several, which is why there's NAUI, YMCA, SSI, etc.)

There will always be the arguement of Chevy vs. Ford, just like there will always be an argument between PADI and NAUI... And both of those people will probably always look at the Audi driver and think, "What the heck is up with THAT guy?" :)

No matter. To each his own.

But I highly recommend taking that Audi for a test drive. It's good. Very good. :)
 
Ok, the Audi looks cool, sporty, but, where do I put all my scuba gear and a beach babe? *tilt*
 
Amen brother! I am glad that all of that is cleared up.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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