DIR & reef hooks?

[SeaJay]

Flame wars suck. Everyone's significantly ticked now. Can we just recognize that some people dive with reef hooks, while others don't?

I don't approve of the practice either... But I've never made any kind of headway with anyone through aggressive posts. In fact, typically flaming makes people dismiss the opposing opinion quicker - I think we'd be more productive if we simply suggested our opinion and gave the reasons... Which everyone's done already. Maintaining a firm but friendly opinion tends to keep others more open. How are they going to hear the message when it's so laced with aggressiveness?

...Not that I'm innocent of that myself, you know... But that's what I've learned, even if I'm not always skilled enough to apply it myself.

NarcT, I agree that there's other ways of handling that situation - ways that are better than the "reef hook" solution. I can understand your approach, and I can see it has merit - that it's effective. We don't agree that it's the best solution, but you're entitled to your opinion too.

Sorry you're taking heat. We all do from time to time.

 

[detroit diver]

I'll tell you what SeaJay. You post the way you want to post, and I'll post the way I want to post. I'm pretty fed up with your holier than thou attitude lately. I used to dismiss it, but it's really getting way too thick. When you run the board, you can make up your own TOS.

Your flame war is someone else's arguement.

And no. Reef hooks are bullsh*t. They always have been, and always will be. And when someone dies as a direct result of using one of these things, tell their family that it was okay.

Flame wars suck. Everyone's significantly ticked now. Can we just recognize that some people dive with reef hooks, while others don't?

I don't approve of the practice either... But I've never made any kind of headway with anyone through aggressive posts. In fact, typically flaming makes people dismiss the opposing opinion quicker - I think we'd be more productive if we simply suggested our opinion and gave the reasons... Which everyone's done already. Maintaining a firm but friendly opinion tends to keep others more open. How are they going to hear the message when it's so laced with aggressiveness?

...Not that I'm innocent of that myself, you know... But that's what I've learned, even if I'm not always skilled enough to apply it myself.

NarcT, I agree that there's other ways of handling that situation - ways that are better than the "reef hook" solution. I can understand your approach, and I can see it has merit - that it's effective. We don't agree that it's the best solution, but you're entitled to your opinion too.

Sorry you're taking heat. We all do from time to time.

 

[SeaJay]

Whew.

Okay, cool with me, DD.

Sorry if I've come across that way. I was trying to adopt a new attitude - I didn't realize that it was coming across as "holier than thou." That wasn't my intent. I was looking for "kinder, gentler."

And you're right... I'm not a mod and this isn't my board. I was just trying to make our friend (he is a diver, after all) a little less... Crispy. Crispy sucks. Been there.

 

[detroit diver]

Whew.

Okay, cool with me, DD.

Sorry if I've come across that way. I was trying to adopt a new attitude - I didn't realize that it was coming across as "holier than thou." That wasn't my intent. I was looking for "kinder, gentler."

And you're right... I'm not a mod and this isn't my board. I was just trying to make our friend (he is a diver, after all) a little less... Crispy. Crispy sucks. Been there.

Sometimes "kindler, gentler" results in people not understanding the seriousness of the subject, and people die that way in this sport.

The new diver needs to know that this practice is downright dangerous. It can't be sugar coated, or made nice. Just because someone thinks he's a macho cowboy, it doesn't mean that he's right.

 

[SeaJay]

And no. Reef hooks are bullsh*t. They always have been, and always will be. And when someone dies as a direct result of using one of these things, tell their family that it was okay.

I wouldn't tell their family anything of the sort. Believe me, I can relate to that situation, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. Remembering back, I would never tell someone that "it was okay" that someone died.

...And I am in no way defending the use of reef hooks. I feel the same way about them that you do.

But it's been my humble experience that blaming gear for shortcomings is unproductive and clouds the real issue. Blaming any piece of gear for someone's death is only an extension of that thought process.

The reef hook did not kill this woman. Perhaps her use of it did... But in every case I've ever looked at regarding the death of a diver, no one factor ever comes into play - any injury, up to and including death, is a result of a series of issues that create a situation "from whence recovery is impossible."

The reef hook may have had a huge part in the death, and it may have even been the catalyst. It was even a symptom, but it was not the problem. The problem ran much deeper than "the use of a reef hook."

THAT is what killed this woman... And no, it's not "okay."

 

[SeaJay]

Sometimes "kindler, gentler" results in people not understanding the seriousness of the subject, and people die that way in this sport.

The new diver needs to know that this practice is downright dangerous. It can't be sugar coated, or made nice. Just because someone thinks he's a macho cowboy, it doesn't mean that he's right.

I agree.

...Which is why I believe that yelling at the guy - and having him just "tune us out" is unproductive.

I'm hoping that remaining corduial and polite will prevent him from closing up and that he'll keep an open mind. I'm hoping that the message will still get through that way.

I remember a time not too long ago when I came on this board and spouted a whole bunch of opinions that changed as my experience with diving increased. When I look back, I'm very thankful that y'all never chewed me out so bad that I just closed up and dismissed your words. I'm glad I kept an open mind and kept looking. I'd never have gone the route I did if I'd been run off.

I thanked Uncle Pug one day last week for being gentle with me... And I thank you and O-ring, too, for helping me instead of nailing me to the cross. Everything would be different now if y'all had done that to me.

 

[AquaTec]

This one will mess with your heads.
a 12 man peramid all reef hooked into each other with a rippin current

notice the front guy is double hooked into the ROCKS on the reef.

the danger is seldom with the equipment it is usualy with the lack of training and experience of the diver using the equipment

once you guys get done chewing on me with this picture I have another one that will blow your hair back,

and wait till you see the scary sharks swimming in front of us just over the top of a ravine that drops 6000 feet holly crap this is scary stuff

 

[AquaTec]

in this one three of us are hooked in together, you will see that our feet are resting on the reef hook attatched to the guy in front.

I am the one in back with the doubles and the rebreather in the middle is my dive buddy.

it was quite a relaxing position to hang out on the reef in.

by the way it is no problem releasing a reef hook no matter how strong the current, you simply unclip it from yourself leaving the hook behind, or you could cut it, or you could pull yourself along the line down to the ROCK and unhook it. There is no way you are trapped by the hook.

 

[narcT]

I'll tell you what SeaJay. You post the way you want to post, and I'll post the way I want to post. I'm pretty fed up with your holier than thou attitude lately. I used to dismiss it, but it's really getting way too thick. When you run the board, you can make up your own TOS.

Your flame war is someone else's arguement.

And no. Reef hooks are bullsh*t. They always have been, and always will be. And when someone dies as a direct result of using one of these things, tell their family that it was okay.

Mr. DD,

1. Your posts about the deceased are in very poor taste, they can be very hurtful to the families involved.
2. You have now attacked two people on this board for no reason, SeaJay and myself.
3. I have had sea water up my nose on several occasions, it does not bother me. Not being macho, just after the first 10 or 20 times I got used to it

If you want to make fun of me because I do not have your 60 years of diving expericence thats fine. But I dive with people who have been instructors since the 1960's (combat diver also, I'm a military brat). I don't think they would recommend doing anything that is dangerous, and yes, I do trust my life in thier hands.

There are certain diving activities that are on the edge, and for this reason I do not share them on this board. But the use of a hook is not in this category, if used properly I don't think its any big deal.

I agree with SeaJay in that attacking people is not productive, attack the issues and keep the emotions out of it. If I'm wrong I'm wrong, but I will continue to do what works for me....

 

[narcT]

No need to respond, looks like someone already called you on your load of BS.

Have a real nice day and enjoy your solo diving and coral killing.

Coral killing? ROFL at least you didn't call me a baby seal killer

On my next dive I'm getting a pet rock to add to my coral collection in the den...haha<<--Joke