Dir-?

[BigJetDriver]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...


There are jerks everywhere, that's just the way it is. Because DIR can be looked at as a bunch of rules, it attracts some idiots, I'll grant you that. What these people don't realize is the complexity and beauty of the system, and the reasons behind the rules.

Anyway, I just wanted to make sure you knew that most of us are just regular guys, just like Zaphod.

Actually what I wrote was not intended to be a personal attack! I do, in fact, think you are a pretty regular guy. I have, in fact, both quoted some of your other posts and recommended them to other readers as making sense. I have also recommended GUE classes, among others, as having good things to teach.

You must admit, however, that saying things like: "What are you so scared of?", as you did to me, does tend to personalize the issue a wee bit! It did call for a bit more of a personal answer.

So while I won't worry my pretty little head over it, (another recent comment of yours), I will point out that I am not, by any means an unfriendly rebreather diver. I enjoy a full and open flow of information and I like to help other divers. That is one reason I worked so hard to become a DMT, for instance!

So, while this is not personal, I still do not understand one thing. You say you don't like rebreathers, and you don't have one. What exactly IS your agenda here? We do have them. We do like them, and we like to discuss them!

 

[Braunbehrens]

What I find interesting is that you guys say that scrubber failure should be a non issue, but in the same breath we hear about 3 scrubber failures. In hundreds of OC dives I have never run out of gas and I have never had a 1st or second stage failure. Even though when I first started to dive I went for years without any service on my gear-pure stupidity of course, but a testament to how reliable a plain old OC setup really is.

Anyway, it sounds like you guys are among the more sane rebreather divers...but I still wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole.

 

[Braunbehrens]

BigJetDriver69 once bubbled...


So, while this is not personal, I still do not understand one thing. You say you don't like rebreathers, and you don't have one. What exactly IS your agenda here? We do have them. We do like them, and we like to discuss them!

BJD, let's let bygones be bygones, I certainly am not at all interested in making ennemies, I just felt attacked by your post and responded to it.

I too am interested in sharing information, and in the Aristotelian ideal of an "argument". Namely that two people with differing ideas can share them to arrive at a third idea, which is superior to both of the original ones.

I know I come on strong on occasion, but this is simply because I tend to be a little blunt and dispense with some of the "niceties". I simply call it like I see it. I'm sorry if I have somehow offended you by doing so.

Believe it or not some of us don't really have an agenda. We just like to yak about diving. In the process we may pick up something here and there, and help a few people out with some information that may help them.

As I've said, I responded to this thread because I felt that not all DIR divers are jerks, and then the discussion just sort of meandered to where it is now.

I do find the subject of rebreathers interesting, and I do like to discuss them with people who dive them. A dive buddy of mine dives an RB80, although I haven't dived with him since he got it, and I wouldn't dive with him while he's using it. Another local guy that I'm friendly with dives a rb also, I believe it's a dolphin. So you see, I have nothing against people who dive rb's. I simply feel they are unsafe.

To be honest, I find it a little bit demeaning to have to justify my reasons for posting to you, but in the spirity of friendly discussions and reducing any animosity, I have done so.

Can we move on now and talk about diving please?

 

[saturated]

What I find interesting is that you guys say that scrubber failure should be a non issue

I think the point was missed, scrubber failure is a nonissue unless you make stupid mistakes as we did. I've actually never had a problem on a breather that was not caused by me. ( I have'nt had many over the years) but I believe all problems I've had could be attributed to my failures and not the units.

I think the best way to truly understand a RB is to take a fam course. We can tell you things till were blue in the face but experience will teach you much more. 5 min in the pool is worth 10,000 words.

I do understand the statement about not having any failures on OC and not having gear serviced properly ect. OC is definately more forgiving than ccr,scr. You cant just throw your gear on and get wet. It requires a little discipline to setup properly and do all the predive checks involved. But well worth the trouble and when done correctly, very reliable.


If you wanna get wet OC
If you need to stay wet CCR

Anyway, it sounds like you guys are among the more sane rebreather divers...but I still wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole.

I have a 12' pole and a swimming pool.

 

[Braunbehrens]

saturated once bubbled...


I think the point was missed, scrubber failure is a nonissue unless you make stupid mistakes as we did.

OK, but I view this as a fact: We are all idiots sometimes.

If you are an idiot on OC with a competent buddy, you'll live. On a rb you'll die.

Well, at least you are more likely to die.

This is really the crux of the argument against breathers. Not that they are inherently flawed, but that they require too much discipline and that eventually people screw up.

It's all well and good to say "I've had problems but they were due to my own mistakes"....dead is still dead.

When I grew up in Germany they taught us to always look both ways, even in a crosswalk. They said that otherwise your tombstone would read "here rests someone who had the right of way".

It was funny, but it got the point accross.

The idea of the breather sounds great, btw, it is very very enticing. Running out of gas is what most people fear most, that, and the bends.

If I ever make it down to your neck of the woods you can put the breather in the pool and hand me that 12 foot pole ...

It'll make for a good story

 

[padiscubapro]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...
What I find interesting is that you guys say that scrubber failure should be a non issue, but in the same breath we hear about 3 scrubber failures. In hundreds of OC dives I have never run out of gas and I have never had a 1st or second stage failure. Even though when I first started to dive I went for years without any service on my gear-pure stupidity of course, but a testament to how reliable a plain old OC setup really is.

Anyway, it sounds like you guys are among the more sane rebreather divers...but I still wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole.

My 2 "failures", really weren't true failures(just possible short term problems), I just mention it to bring in training does allow us to deal with issues..

1 "failure" was due to the fact that a did a cell replacement and the bulkhead wasn't tight enough... I had water intrusion into the scrubber (not enough for me to get off the loop) but enough to decrease the scrubber efficiency.. I noticed the symptoms (I was swimming hard), flushed the loop, and ended the dive on the loop.. I just made me aware to take it easy(on my way back and up and to monitor my condition closely) and not push things..

the second "failure" may not have even been a problem.. I just treated it as such to be on the safe side..

I had 2 students with me (one was on OC to a depth deeper than he has ever gone).. I was pre occupied with my students and was probably not breathing correctly (re: shallow), I realized some possible symptoms, flushed the loop and mades sure I was breathing correctly and no symptoms re-appeared.. Its better to treat any questionable situation as a true problem, than become a statistic..

There will be at least one rebreather (in the near future) that will have PCO2 monitoring and several people are talking about adding PCO2 monitors.

I used OC for many years and swore by it, at the beginning I thought RBs were a pain in th a**, but as I got used to it and got the routine down its actually less work overall.. The biggest difference is when doing multiple deco dives, when al the OC people are getting all their gear ready for their next dive, I'm eating lunch, grabbing a drink and just relaxing....

I used to plan oc dives with a typical bottom times of 15 or 20 minutes for deep stuff, now its more like 30 or 40 minutes, and in many cases I'm getting out the same time as the OC divers and I had more bottom time..

Prior to using a RB a 300ft dive would have been basically a bounce... by the time I got there it was time to turn around, now I'll do 20 to 30 minutes.... I wouldn't even considered that on OC... (I don't have the luxury of a chamber to do longer dives).. 3hrs of deco is enough....

I look at CCR RBs this way, a new diver has alot to think about and is probably easier to hurt oneself.. the other end of the spectrum is the seasoned CCR RB diver, who has the experience and knowledge to do the dives he/she is attempting.. If a problem occurs this person has more options than an oc or SCR diver..

I can... run manually if electronics fail
I can.. fly manually as an scr and get ATLEAST a 5 to 1 extension of my gas..
I can bail to OC at depth and do deco on OC
I can bail to OC at depth and return tpo the RB at 6m/20 fsw if the electonics are shot and run it as an O2 rebreather....

If I somehow got entangled or lost... who cares I have lots of time to sort things out.....

another skill that I can do with one of my buddies (This skill requires trust and practice and would only be used in EXTREME circumstances) is Buddy-breathe sharing one rebreather)

It would take some type of catostrophic failure to get me off my loop... That would be somehome cutting my breathing hoses (they have balistic nylon covering them) tearing the lungs at a high point on the loop (again balistic nylon) and my canister is in a titanium shell which I doubt willl get penetrated..

Even scrubber "failure" probably wouldn't get me immediately off my loop, if Its partial breakthrough, running it as an SCR would probably work for a period of time since the gas is being constantly flushed...

 

[Braunbehrens]

Well, we are never going to agree on rb's being safe...but I also don't do 300ft dives. I feel that with a dive to that depth (and any reasonable bottom time) blowing it means death or paralysis. With a dive to 200 ft or less I feel that even if you blow it moderately you'll have a good chance that you only have pain hits and can ride it out with O2 and/or a chamber.

Again, it's a matter of acceptable risk...we each have to make that decision.

 

[padiscubapro]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...
Well, we are never going to agree on rb's being safe...but I also don't do 300ft dives. I feel that with a dive to that depth (and any reasonable bottom time) blowing it means death or paralysis. With a dive to 200 ft or less I feel that even if you blow it moderately you'll have a good chance that you only have pain hits and can ride it out with O2 and/or a chamber.

Again, it's a matter of acceptable risk...we each have to make that decision.

a 200 ft dive with a short run time you'll probably get out if you have a low He mix, as you increase the He content your judgement gets much better but your tissue loading goes up as well....
from a blown decompression standpoint an Air dive is better(short run times... long run times Heliox is the best), but narcosis is way up there..... so its a matter of balancing this risk for that benefit..

From all the accident reports I have looked at, the outcomes weren't bad with 30 mins or less of blown deco and prompt treatment... anything more than that the outcomes weren't as good and obviously get worse with amount od missed decompression...

 

[Braunbehrens]

padiscubapro once bubbled...


a 200 ft dive with a short run time you'll probably get out if you have a low He mix, as you increase the He content your judgement gets much better but your tissue loading goes up as well....
from a blown decompression standpoint an Air dive is better(short run times... long run times Heliox is the best), but narcosis is way up there..... so its a matter of balancing this risk for that benefit..

From all the accident reports I have looked at, the outcomes weren't bad with 30 mins or less of blown deco and prompt treatment... anything more than that the outcomes weren't as good and obviously get worse with amount od missed decompression...

THis is the nice thing about deep stops. A big part of your deco is already done, so even if you blow it in the shallows you shouldn't be in too bad a shape.

 

[caveseeker7]

First let me say I'm glad the bickering and name calling has stopped. Doesn't get anybody anywhere.

Somebody (it has become a rather large thread, I don't remember nor do I want to reread it all) said earlier it be nice to have the option of GUE training for CCRs. I rather doubt that will happen for obvious reasons, just as it is unlikely there will be a class for using dive computers. (However, there is GUE OC training. Seriously consider taking that, to apply to your diving as you see fit)

Yet I can't help thinking that they do teach the use of the RB80 SCR. Fairly simple RB, backmounted & protected counterlung, reliable, manual without electronics ... .

Now here some food for thought:
There is a CCR that comes pretty close: Gordon Smith's KISS rebreather.Fairly simple RB, backmounted & protected counterlung, reliable, manual operation. Just imagine throwing out its battery powered O2 monitors and replacing them with a version of Peter Ready's secondary. No batteries, it runs off the current of the sensors, potted with reed switch dial against flooding ... . ........