Disappointed / Frustrated with my first OW class

[KevinNM]

I've seen classes on that order with the stores whose pool sessions I show up for. They have three different schedules. One runs 4 weeks of 2 hours twice a week and a separate class that runs for 3 hours on Saturday for 4 weeks. The other stores run a 4 hour pool session on Saturday and Sunday, then off to open water the next weekend.

Typically for 10 you'd have an instructor and 1-2 DMs or AIs, though sometimes a second instructor would replace on the the DMs or AIs.

The first 2 hour session does not spend a whole lot of time in scuba gear, as they have a bunch of other things to cover, the 3 and 4 hour courses spend more time doing scuba on the first day, and by the end they are pretty much in scuba gear the whole time.

The drawback of the frequent shorter classes is the setup and tear down time come out of it. The pool wants everyone out of the building at the end of the session timer and nobody in the water or crowding the deck with gear until the session starts. So you get more like 1.5 hours of class in 2 hours, or 3.5 hours in 4.

 

[urbaneve71]

i had a class that 6-1 -- do not be afraid to speak up and voice your concerns --- a simple thing like a mask is important IMO -- if you get underwater and are having problem it could ruin your whole dive.

also an instructor that races through a class is NOT a great instructor in my opinion. you are the one paying him, not the other way around. i would stop in at the dive shop and voice your concerns and maybe find another place to learn from if you are not happy with the instruction you are getting.

I would first of all relax, then go back to the shop, voice your concerns, get personal attention to what you need, and if it happens again or they don't satisfy you, drop the course and try to get some money back.

It's too important to allow it to be not right. Especially at the start of your (hopefully lengthy) diving career.

- Bill

makes a very good point.

 

[Doby45]

This is not PADI specific at all. I have gone through SDI for all of my instruction and my OW was much the same regarding class size and a "rushed" feeling. I had done a discovery dive about a month prior to my class so a lot of the basics I already had and the online stuff filled in the blanks for the other stuff. We did have people in my class, that had never spent 5min in scuba gear, struggle with some of the course material. As it was stated earlier in this thread somewhere, by the time we were in open water all the stuff had been ironed out. Hang in there, do not expect to be hand held (not that you are) and absorb everything that you can. In your OW class you are literally getting the basics. And always remember WE are here for you as well.

 

[Lorenzoid]

I see in one of your later posts here that you are considering one-on-one or at least more personalized instruction in the future, and I think that's the ticket. For someone who is highly educated, analytical, inquisitive, dedicated, etc., the basic OW class can be mind-numbing if conducted as yours seems to be. But they don't all have to be like that. A colleague of mine recently got certified along with his wife and daughter, and they opted for private instruction. From what he related to me about his OW course, they spent way way more time both in the water and in the classroom (old school lecture and problem solving exercises) than I believe is required by the training agency, and it wasn't dumbed down; rather, the instructor ratcheted up the lecture and theory part to suit their level. After reading so many stories like yours, I was truly impressed with the quality of his instruction. So, it doesn't have to be as you described. For your next class after OW, you now know what to look for.

 

[2airishuman]

First class tonight of a 5 week course. 2 hour classroom, 2 hours pool.

I guess I'm not sure what's the norm or what to expect, so maybe my expectations were too high, but i left pretty annoyed at the experience.

Norm? Classes vary widely. Think of classes you've taken in other areas, e.g. photography. No doubt some were better than others.

Let me start by saying I'm a 31y/o athletic male that races motorcycles, snowboards, hikes, has snorkeled, and works in video production. I'm used to complicated technical stuff and a variety of physical tasks, in good shape, and came in well read and well prepared.

And left very frustrated.

One of the things about diving is that it is accessible to and pursued by people from all walks of life. You may find that fellow divers, as well as shops and instructors, are not as organized, adventurous, fit, etc., as you might like.

the main instructor was absent tonight and will be with us for the remainder.

That's probably a good deal of the problem, right there.

1 instructor, 1 DM assistant. Class of 10.

Allowed but far from ideal. Presumably they would have run the class with two instructors and one assistant but for the main instructor's absence, which would be workable, but 1:5 is still a lot of students.

I had a concern about my mask being too loose and was told it would be fine and I didn't want it too tight. I said I knew that but I thought it was a little too loose... but was just told "no no its good" BOOM onto next. Alright...

Well, It wasn't fine, it filled completely with water as soon as we went down.

I would guess that the strap was tightened correctly but the mask was either damaged or a poor fit for your face.

I would recommend purchasing a mask that fits you well and using it at the next class.

Is this normal for PADI Open Water cert courses? It felt like elementary knowledge, herding cattle, and no time for personal help.

I don't think it's normal for PADI or any of the other agencies, but it does happen.

Are my expectations too high for OW? Will I find that most of my learning needs to come from post OW training and mentors? Should I have gotten either a class capped with half the people instead of 10, or personal training?

One of the areas where I disagree with many of the regulars here at ScubaBoard is that: I don't think it's possible for a non-diver to evaluate the quality of a class before taking it.

When I took OW the pool sessions were 2:1 and the open water sessions were 1:1. This was largely a matter of luck. I found my pool instructor to be capable and my open water instructor to be very good. I did the classroom bit on-line.

My advice is to stick it out for another night and decide then.

Thanks guys,

To be clear, I was having an issue tightening the mask strap (fiddly buckle, older rental gear) which is when I was told not to tighten it more. Once under the water, tightening the mask whose strap I was already having problems with at the surface was a non-starter.

Again, it sure sounds to me like a mask problem not a strap problem. It may have a rip, or it may just fit poorly. Most OW classes require the students to supply their own mask, fins, and snorkel for exactly this reason, although, mask fit is partially trial and error so it's not always a guarantee.

If so, I am also considering looking at some local and respected private instructors... if not for OW, than for my future training after this.


This may have made me realize that my expectations for training are a "10".. this class delivered about a 1-2... and while I'm sure and hopeful things will improve, I'm wondering if I can really expect them to improve past a "5" on my scale of expectations.

I do expect the future ones to better. I will be calling them tomorrow to ask some questions and respectfully voice my concerns and disappointments.

A fact to consider is that the amount of 1-to-1 instructor time you'll need is greatest when learning new skills, which will be in the first couple of sessions.

Questions just seemed to be me with a bit of impatience. When pulling out tanks, I had asked what sort of tank this was - "Is this an AL 80 or?"

Why did I ask? because I want to know these things! I've read all about them here and elsewhere, never seen one in real life. What I am looking at and strapping to my back is a valid question I think?

Many OW instructors and nearly all of their students use AL80s to the exclusion of anything else, so they see questions like that as out of the scope of what they teach, even though they're perfectly valid questions.

As for the mask, that was just sort of the final straw of this. Even though it was "fine", it was the principle of it. The mask wasn't the problem, it merely represented the problem.

You will not have a good experience diving without gear that fits and works for you. You have to have a mask that doesn't leak and a BC that fits. Something to talk to them about before the next class, perhaps. With larger classes they sometimes compromise on BC sizes because they run out of one size and start putting people in the next larger or smaller one.

 

[Buliwyf]

I'd give the class a chance and complete it. Get your rec cert.

Then get all the proper gear and hire a tech trainer for private 1 on 1 training. If you're info and technique hungry, that's the way to go.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

These types of questions are quite common. Not just here on scubaboard either.

It's one of the reasons I wrote my first book. To try and answer some of them and to help new divers and those considering taking it up evaluate possible training options. That a non diver can't always evaluate training before they take it is nonsense.

There are threads on this board and in total 3 chapters in my book to do just that. There is one on how to interview an instructor. The reason is, as someone noted earlier, you are hiring them. They work for you. There is a misconception that instructors work for themselves, a shop, a resort, or other operation. Don't ever let anyone try to pull that on you.
You are hiring an employee to teach you how to dive. That employee is the instructor, the shop, and anyone else involved. They have knowledge and skills you want/need. The same as any employee you hire.

There is information on how to interview a shop as well as deciding what training is right for you.
If the place is really organized and busy enough to have classes that big they would have a separate session to allow you to select your gear. It would not take up most of the first classroom session.

The first pool session in some programs is all the swim tests and snorkeling/free diving skills.
The second session is when students get on SCUBA.

Ratios are another area that are critical to diver development as well as safety. Just because they are allowed 10 -1, 8-1, etc. doesn't mean it's a good idea. Personally I prefer 1-1 or 2-1. I will do a 4-1 class only if it's a family. I just did one and even then since everyone learns at different rates I kept time open to do 1-1 session with one of them if necessary. It wasn't but I always do that.

The first classroom/pool session is where students form an idea of what the overall tone will be of the class. 10-1 with a DM or other assistant is pushing it way too far IMO. If it's that disorganized now due to those ratios you can only hope it gets better.

However I would not hold my breath because now you are already behind in the classroom and the pool. SO unless the students put their foot down and demand they get what they paid for, and things change, it is likely they will not. The regular instructor is going to have to rush to make up for what the sub left out. You can talk to the owner of the operation and hope some effort is made to resolve this. If you don't do that keep your expectations low. If you do talk to him/her and get some results consider yourself fortunate. Just don't let them try to intimidate you or make you feel you are in the wrong. You're not.

 

[redacted]

In the end, it is the same c-card. If you think you need better instruction or are just willing to pay more for closer attention, then go for it. Otherwise, I would save the $$$ for gear and diviing.

 

[Colliam7]

Many of my comments will echo / agree with comments of other posters.

1 instructor, 1 DM assistant. Class of 10.

The ratio is actually manageable, for an organized instructor, and efficient DM. I do not care for that size group myself, and would prefer a second DM at the very least. I have seen things done well in such an environment (one Instructor, 1 DM, and 10 students), and seen things done very poorly.

First 2 hours in classroom weren't used that well - it took about 1 hour and 15 minutes to outfit us with the gear we would be using in the pool session and give intros of why were were diving. I'm guessing this had to do with being short staffed.

Taking an hour and 15 minutes to outfit a group of 10 students is not at all unreasonable. Not conducting an entirely separate Orientation session, where all paperwork in completed, pictures taken, procedures explained, gear fitted, initial questions are answered, etc., on a night separate and apart from the first night of 'formal' work, is foolish. If that is done, the first 2 hours before the first pool session can be used for the beginning of academics, including answering questions.

'Being short staffed' IS NOT an excuse. Being short staffed on the first night of a 5 week course with 10 students IS poor organization and planning on the part of the shop, and possibly the Instructor.

As for the pool... my real problem is here... We got there late because of being behind, and due to this we had to rush through gear setup with one person explaining to 10 of us in a long row - and without much detail or pause - the setup process. . . . The whole session in the pool with actual scuba gear was less than 25 minutes

That is NOT a 2 hr pool session. The disorganization you describe is not typical.

I came in super prepared, and left completely unsatisfied in not having learned much of anything - in either the classroom session OR the pool session - and am concerned at the depth or thoroughness of training I am going to get.

I can fully appreciate your reaction. I would have felt the same way.

Is this normal for PADI Open Water cert courses?

As others have said, NO. It is also not normal for any training agency I know of. But (and this is very unfortunate) a disorganized instructor and/or shop can easily make a dog's breakfast out of any agency's well-structured course, with good standards.

I am pretty sure this will get better on the next course when the main instructor is there and (supposedly) more DMs to help, and not all the gear selecting and pool tests that ate up so much time...

As the majority of posters have said, give it a second session with the Instructor who is supposed to be responsible, and the (promised) proper staff. Make you assessment after that point.

Are my expectations too high for OW? Will I find that most of my learning needs to come from post OW training and mentors? Should I have gotten either a class capped with half the people instead of 10, or personal training?

No. Possibly. Not necessarily.

I would love to have students who, in all cases, had you expectations. But, in fairness to the Instructor in this case, not all (probably, not the majority of) OW students come to the first session as well-prepared as you describe yourself being.

Now, what you could have done to avoid at least some of your frustration:

1. Buy your own mask, fins, snorkel, boots, IN ADVANCE. That gives you time to treat it with defog, to adjust it, etc., It sounds like the mask problem enhanced your frustration, and that (securing a properly fitting mask) is your responsibility.

2. If you have questions, ASK THEM. You are paying for Instruction. You have every reason to get your money's worth out of the process. If you ask a question that is not immediately relevant to the focus of the group at the moment, the Instructor may ask you to defer that question until later. There is nothing wrong with that. But not asking questions, because the session is rushed as a result of someone else's poor organization and planning, is not helping yourself, NOR is it helping other students who may have the same question.

 

[filmguy123]

Thanks all. Appreciate the feedback and thoughtful responses from many!

A few thoughts to follow up on this.

Lorenzoid said "I see in one of your later posts here that you are considering one-on-one or at least more personalized instruction in the future, and I think that's the ticket. For someone who is highly educated, analytical, inquisitive, dedicated, etc., the basic OW class can be mind-numbing if conducted as yours seems to be."

Tursiops said "OP, you've had many posts on SB. Your needs and attitudes suggest a private class with a good instructor. Sure, it will cost more. But that will meet your (high) expectations."

I agree with this. I don't want to bash any class, agency, or shops. Honestly, it was a bad night for them, and once its remedied, I think it will be "fine". But it did make me all the more aware of the deficit between my expectations and what may be possible here. If things had gone smoothly, I may have left disappointed by not frustrated and coming to SB to post.

I know some other students were frustrated based on a brief post class chat with a few. I'm sure others didn't care. But even the ones whom I talked to, their attitude was more "well, 1 down, only 4 to go!" Which indicates a "get it over with" attitude. Mine was the opposite reaction. "Lost 1 chance, hopefully 4 more chances to get my moneys worth".

I think I would be content had the class been run competently. But with reflection now, I think what I most *ACTUALLY WANT* for my training is not to hit a standards checklist, it's to learn as absolutely much as possible, as thoroughly as possible, at a level much higher than the minimum standard.

Assuming I finish out this course, will it be hard for me to make up for missed depth and thoroughness of training by going with a better personal instructor POST course?​

Jim - thanks for the detailed response. Sounds like some good tips in your book! Though to be fair, by the time I started reading anything of the sort about Scuba I had already signed up for a class. I imagine this would be common for most any new diver. When you first look to get into scuba, without an already existing mentor, the thought is "look online to find the best rated local shop", talk to a friend who has also been certified locally, and roll with it is really all there is. If I hadn't poured so many hours into pre class study, I wouldn't even know other agencies exist, other instruction options exist, or how big of a deal it is to get good training.

I have learned a ton since I signed up a month ago online and through books, etc. I imagine very few people do this. I already own and have been browsing around through "Deco for Divers" (as well as a handful of other books) and made over 80 posts on SB... Before my OW class even started. I imagine I am the exception to the rule here. Had I known what I know now, I would have hired a local well respected personal instructor. Unfortunately, it seems the best of these don't really advertise online, so unless you are ALREADY IN THE KNOW before you even sign up for a course, you miss this.

Possible suggestion - do you have a website setup, and tagged with metadata so that you can hit a first result on google with people search for "SCUBA training [cityname]". Idea for you: create an info landing website, tag it with all the most common searches people do for looking for local scuba courses, and then offer up your chapter on "what to look for in training" for free on your website. Then have a link directly to amazon for your book. Not only could this help new divers, but it would likely boost book sales.


Cuzza - agree with your self reliance independent outlook on students responsibility. Also 100% agree with DoctorMike. While the mask issue was a minor issue I get what you are saying - I am my own best advocate, etc. - at the same time, a student, even the best student, simply won't know what they don't know until they know it. A certain level of trust and dependency on the professional you are paying to train you is not only to be expected, but its actually to be required to learn anything. Imagine being a teacher and having a student who would argue with everything you told them and not listen. That's being unteachable. I asked, he told me, I asked again and clarified, he insisted. What else was I to do? Snorkeling experience is irrelevant here, because you aren't submerged. I was told the pressure would hold it in. It didn't. Should I have gotten into argument after already asking twice? Here's the thing, the instructor may have actually been right. As I understand from my reading, mask pressures get increasingly tighter with depth - yes? Perhaps at 20 feet my mask would have been just right and not leaked and the instructor was bang on. But we were doing pool drills at about 3 feet under, which probably didn't have enough pressure to seal the mask in the way he was, in his overly hurried state, thinking it would. This could have been solved if he took more time to seriously examine my concern and wasn't in such a rush.


Anyway, thanks for the encouragement and feedback all. I will respectfully chat with the shop to figure out what's normal going forward and what my options are. Likely that the future classes will be better in the future and that I'll stick with this course and work with it, and then look for some more advanced level and personal level training for all of my future training. If I'm not feeling it though after next time and I have options, I will be open to exploring the option of dropping out and going with a personal instructor locally.