Discussion - merits of qualifying on multiple rebreathers?

[Oxymoron]

Progression through CCR training levels in all the agencies requires stipulated hours on the SAME model of CCR. Has there ever been any consideration given to allowing combined time on different models to count towards the pre-requisites?

Allowing time on all models to count would encourage the beginner CCR diver to try and qualify on several models, rather than having to buy a unit to specialise in before really having the experience to make an informed decision.

It might also benefit the dive industry because it would make it more feasible for dive shops to offer rental units, as there would eventually be wider base of divers qualified to hire them.

I can see a parallel in aviation - progression through training does require minimum hours - but hours on all aircraft types count. Also, ratings are not type-based - once you have (say) an Instrument Rating, you can fly any aircraft under Instrument Flight Rules as long as you are type-rated on the aircraft.

 

[JohnnyC]

You have to have X number of dive/hours/both on the model of CCR you are training. That doesn't mean you can't use different rebreathers, it's just designed to make sure the the diver taking advanced training is comfortable on their unit. You don't want to be teaching a diver how to dive an unfamiliar unit when you're doing advanced skills.

I have certifications on 3 units. I could take my next course on any of those three units as long as I have more than X number of dives/hours that the agency mandates. What they don't want happening is someone who has never been on a new unit, showing up and diving a unit they're neither trained nor comfortable on.

Imagine a diver did MOD1 on a Poseidon VII. Is it a good idea for them to take a JJ to 60m for MOD2 without having been on a JJ before, or only having done a couple hours worth of crossover?

I know some agencies require fewer number of hours on a rebreather if you you have beyond the minimum on another unit. (i.e. if you have 50 hours on another unit, you only need 25 of your new unit before taking the next module)

 

[uwxplorer]

Not sure if you have any experience with CCR diving but:
- the last type of person you would want to jump from unit to unit is a beginner diver trying to acquire muscle memory. Past MOD2, that probably would be less an issue, but you would anyway hope a diver to know her/his limitation...
- a rebreather is your second pair of lungs, requires constant practice to be dived safely and has tons of failure points (breaking parts): why in hell would a shop or a diver want to bother?

 

[-JD-]

Progression through CCR training levels in all the agencies requires stipulated hours on the SAME model of CCR. Has there ever been any consideration given to allowing combined time on different models to count towards the pre-requisites?

Allowing time on all models to count would encourage the beginner CCR diver to try and qualify on several models, rather than having to buy a unit to specialise in before really having the experience to make an informed decision.

It might also benefit the dive industry because it would make it more feasible for dive shops to offer rental units, as there would eventually be wider base of divers qualified to hire them.

I can see a parallel in aviation - progression through training does require minimum hours - but hours on all aircraft types count. Also, ratings are not type-based - once you have (say) an Instrument Rating, you can fly any aircraft under Instrument Flight Rules as long as you are type-rated on the aircraft.

Here in the US (and I imagine in all ICAO locations as well) you have to have completed training/check-ride/endorsement in aircraft with certain characteristics (ex. high-performance, retractable, tailwheel) before flying them. Multi-engine is a full rating, Seaplane is a full rating. When you get into really big/fast/complicated aircraft you frequently need very-specific Type-Ratings that can be very extensive. Instrument is not really about the basics of flying any (particular) plane, but about advanced charting/navigation/radio/procedures... coupled with precision flying technique.

Not sure if you have any experience with CCR diving but:
- the last type of person you would want to jump from unit to unit is a beginner diver trying to acquire muscle memory. Past MOD2, that probably would be less an issue, but you would anyway hope a diver to know her/his limitation...
- a rebreather is your second pair of lungs, requires constant practice to be dived safely and has tons of failure points (breaking parts): why in hell would a shop or a diver want to bother?

But I do think there are some interesting parallels to aviation - "Rebreather-Pilot" seems apt. Adherence to proper procedures (checklists) is key and inattention to deviances and slow/improper responses can get you dead real quick.

I'm just RB-curious for now, but would be nice if there was a sort of basic "Fundamental Rebreather" training with general add-ons for manual/electronic/CCR/SCCR variations and then maybe model-specific check-outs. Some models seem very similar operationally and some very different.

 

[michael-fisch]

A level 1 or 2 RB course takes a long time. After you have a RB certification, the requirements to cross over to another rebreather can usually be fulfilled on a weekend.
I prefer to get the new RB and dive/modify it until I'm good with it and everything works as it should, now I can get a lot more out of a crossover course than If I'd never dived it before.

Michael

 

[Oxymoron]

Not sure if you have any experience with CCR diving but:
- the last type of person you would want to jump from unit to unit is a beginner diver trying to acquire muscle memory. Past MOD2, that probably would be less an issue, but you would anyway hope a diver to know her/his limitation...
- a rebreather is your second pair of lungs, requires constant practice to be dived safely and has tons of failure points (breaking parts): why in hell would a shop or a diver want to bother?

I have PADI CCR TEC 40 on Poseidon VI/VII, TDI Crossover on JJ and IANTD Crossover on O2ptima and on all three combined I have enough hours to do more advanced training but not enough on a single unit alone. I'm just a little perplexed that the combined time does not count, as although I am still a beginner on CCRs, I feel ready to go to another level on any of the three, but not ready yet to just buy/specialise in a single model.

In aviation, getting experience on multiple types is considered advantageous during training and indeed during your career, and aeroplanes are a lot more complex and have a lot more emergency immediate actions to memorise than CCRs. I am just curious as to why the CCR community have come to the conclusion that hours should be single-model specific when aviation - which has been around for a lot longer - has never held that philosophy.

 

[michael-fisch]

Divers adhere to the maxim of Too Deep, Too Long, Too Often. It makes us kind of stupid.
Michael

 

[uwxplorer]

Well, as recent history has proved, slapping the same sticker on very different planes to cut short on pilot mandatory retraining can lead to catastrophic outcomes.
I would assume that the Poseidon 7 and JJ (or O2ptima) have quite different bits and parts, and feel different in the water, for me personally to not feel as confident as you are that I am ready to move on. That is a personal opinion, but it is rooted on the cumulated experience of more seasoned divers (and the loss of a buddy). There are known unknowns, and then there are those pesky unknown unknowns...

 

[michael-fisch]

Several ex-buddies have over the last 30 years died underwater, thankfully never while I was with them. I'm sure that over the years the number will continue to increase - Kiss had a label on their RBs that this RB is designed to kill you - something you should never forget. If you let the RB do the thinking it will eventually kill you, and the rest of us will say "I told you so"

Michael

 

[lowflyer]

ratings are not type-based - once you have (say) an Instrument Rating, you can fly any aircraft under Instrument Flight Rules as long as you are type-rated on the aircraft.

Not completely accurate, at least in the States (Maybe in France?)
Let's say you are certificated in single and multi-engine airplanes, and you have an instrument rating that you earned in a single engine plane. Even though you have a multi rating, you cannot fly IFR in a multi without training in and passing an instrument check ride in a multi engine airplane.