Disturbing trend

[UWSojourner]

... such as an OW diver being told he can go to 200' on air for 20 min. and then need not decompress.

I can go to 200' on air for 20 min without deco? Dude!

OK. Safety precautions.

SpareAir? Check.
Might need assistance down there ... Cellphone? Check.
Hmmm ... must be dark ... Coleman Lantern? Check.
Might see a big critter ... Mace? Check.
Need a timer ... there's one on the frig! Check.

Be back in a few hours ... I'll let you know how it goes.

Just conjecture, but maybe what was a bit scary from a legal point of view is that Genesis' arguments did sound credible ... while still far outside the mainstream. That might concern a lawyer. Maybe.

 

[Dwain]

So, The "beef" with Genesis is that he may have alluded that it may be possible to learn without an instructor present?

And he seemed very much against "trust me dives".

I've read many many threads and diatribes about how one agency or another don't require this or that skill.

That the Instructor a student chooses is paramount in getting a dive education.

However,in other threads Divers and instructors alike lament that new divers aren't taught the basic skills.(By their instructor) Basic skills that are clearly outlined in every dive manual.

Maybe it is a good thing for a diver to take an active roll in his/her education.

There is so much I dont know. In fact I have no idea how much I dont know.

What I do know is I can read and understand manuals.
I know what my comfort level is as I advance in my dive skills.
And I know that some instructors are little more than mobile emergency air sources...Pony bottles with fins.

Forgive my rambling, as I'm sleep deprived.

 

[scubasean]

But he was advocating that you could just go out there and do it without taking a class ... even an OW class ...

I disagree...

As I understand it,

...he was saying that you don't need an *certified* instructor to learn, that you can achieve the same (or sometimes better) degree of learning on your own, through book learning, mentors, etc...Examples he provided were relevant...His example, as I understand it, was that prior to NAUI and PADI, many folks learned to dive by watching, doing and reading, with mentors, rather than certified instructors.

And...as I understand it, he was saying that the industry its too quantity (card...) focused and not quality (high standards, good meaningful teaching) focused.

I don't think he ever advocated the position that someone who knew nothing, had no ambition for self study, and didn't have anyone around who knew what they were doing go out and dive a bit...which is what you seem to imply.

I disagree with some of what Genesis has said, because it was extreme in many ways, but the general principles were often well reasoned...

He certainly causes folks to think...

 

[UWSojourner]

So, the "beef" with Genesis is that he may have alluded ...

Alluded? heh, heh, heh, hahahahahah ... hahahahahahah ...

Sorry, alluded implies subtlety ... Genesis was a forceful advocate of the position.

 

[DepartureDiver]

I disagree...

As I understand it,

...he was saying that you don't need an *certified* instructor to learn, that you can achieve the same (or sometimes better) degree of learning on your own, through book learning, mentors, etc...Examples he provided were relevant...His example, as I understand it, was that prior to NAUI and PADI, many folks learned to dive by watching, doing and reading, with mentors, rather than certified instructors.

And...as I understand it, he was saying that the industry its too quantity (card...) focused and not quality (high standards, good meaningful teaching) focused.

I don't think he ever advocated the position that someone who knew nothing, had no ambition for self study, and didn't have anyone around who knew what they were doing go out and dive a bit...which is what you seem to imply.

I disagree with some of what Genesis has said, because it was extreme in many ways, but the general principles were often well reasoned...

He certainly causes folks to think...

okay ... I never fully put my disclaimer out there ... perhaps I should have since a driving force here was legal and liability issues that were possibly being created. As I said in an earlier post, I never saw the threads. I was relying upon what was said in this thread. And if that were the case, it is understandable why SB would be concerned. It is interesting that the only issues I have heard of have to do with Genesis. I believe he should be able to make any comment in any thread he wants since others can simply ignore it. But his right to shout fire ends when he is in public theatre where those listening to him could get hurt. If he never did his, then he should not be censored. But this appears to not be an isolated incident or SB wouldn't keep having to deal with these issues. I too believe that education can continue outside of classes by reading, etc. But let me tell you a story that happened around here a few years a ago. An OW diver went into a local dive store and rented some equipment. He naturally had his C-card. But he also owned his own equipment and then loaned the rental equipment to a buddy of his … who had never been diving. This resulted in a fatality in less than 20’ in the calm waters of Tahoe. The diver faced criminal charges and the dive store had to deal with some issues of their own since allegations were flying that they should have know the diver had his own equipment and was going to let someone else use it. Fortunately, that did not go anywhere with the dive store. But this shows that when it comes to some issues, including some basic skills, there is a wrong way to do things. Now again, maybe Genesis didn’t do that. But he should also be aware that this is not his site and he should tone things down when legitimate concerns are brought to his attention. SB just didn’t can him. He has been counseled on this and has chosen his tone at times. If someone comes into my establishment and does not conform to my guidelines, I’m going to try to smooth it over and get them within my guidelines. There is nothing wrong with that. But to conclude, if you read an earlier post of mine, I also stated that Genesis does have some valid points and that I started strongly supporting his position in another thread at another forum … so I’m not anti-Genesis … but the way he chooses to communicate does create a stir once in awhile.

 

[Charlie99]

It doesn't appear that the trend is to censor people, but only to be careful when clearly bad ideas are being suggested as being okay ...

The last guy I remember being banned was Popeye. This was also after he had an extensive debate with NetDoc. IIRC, the subject was about breathing off a BC.

2 guys argue with Netdoc.

2 guys get booted.

How many does it take to make a trend?

 

[JeffG]

The last guy I remember being banned was Popeye. This was also after he had an extensive debate with NetDoc. IIRC, the subject was about breathing off a BC.

2 guys argue with Netdoc.

2 guys get booted.

How many does it take to make a trend?

Big difference in circumstances though

Popeye was plotting the downfall of scubaboard, whereas Genesis saw plots in every post on scubaboard

 

[The Chairman]

Dwain,

Let me quote Genesis

I have repeatedly said that instruction is neither necessary or sufficient to learn any part of diving.

There is no "allusion" there. I cannot allow such statements to stand with a clear conscience.

Charlie99

The first big fallacy in your thesis is that Genesis has not been "booted".

The next big fallacy is that many others have argued with me, and have not been booted.

This is augmented by your continued presence here after "challenging" me. If this were merely an ego trip you and your post would be gone. Sorry to disappoint you.

Have y'all thought about discussing diving at all?

 

[Charlie99]

Charlie99
This is augmented by your continued presence here after "challenging" me. If this were merely an ego trip you and your post would be gone. Sorry to disappoint you.

It's your board Pete. Do as you wish.

Goodbye.

 

[LUBOLD8431]

It's your board Pete. Do as you wish.

Goodbye.

People only get booted from here for being troublemakers (violating the TOS) or a general nuisance. If you have been following the board, you know that the guys that get booted deserve it (lets not discuss the big ban of seven, which most came back). I remember Popeye, and Mickey (RIP). This is a better board now that they are no longer members. IMO, it will be even better after a few other people are banned. They will work themselves into a ban sooner or later, and life will go on. The Board will talk about them leaving for a few days, and then back to normal...

I think everyone just needs to let this thread die.