Dive shops and training: the disconnect with reality

[gcbryan]

I had to chuckle at this one, because the lead instructor in one of our local shops hasn't ever dived anywhere in Puget Sound except the training sites
...

I was chuckling a bit when I wrote it. It is funny.

I've been in a local dive store filling my tank many times when a customer would come in asking about specific knowledge of some fairly local dive sites when the manager would just tell them to go ask that guy.

I understand that they may not be able to go to every dive site in the state but when they have no knowledge of any dive site other than training sites and have no knowledge of planning for currents or other more or less required knowledge of local conditions it's a bit much.

The running joke I had with one dive shop manager was that I had never seen her in any water that didn't contain chlorine.

I agree that every diver has to grow up and not rely on the dive shop anyway and this thread was just really created with the newer diver in mind. Maybe someone is feeling that disconnect I was talking about and it might make them think a bit more or just realize it's a common feeling. Whatever, if it's not valuable or interesting to anyone it will die a quiet death.

 

[gcbryan]

Why don't you open a new dive shop in your area so you can actually make a difference?

Whinging about it won't make any difference, put your money where your mouth is and qualify as an instructor so that you can do things differently... the world is changed by people who believe they can change it, with the courage to stand up and do things that need to be done. Not by people on the internet.....

Are you through patting yourself on the back courageous one?

That's a rather weak argument. Unless you become an instructor like me you can't voice your opinion...not buying it!

By the way...we're both on the internet. That's the whole point of Scubaboard.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Do you mean the ones who are trying to put food on the table by selling courses and equipment? Nah, surely not.

It cracks me up, people will walk into an electrical store for a new TV and not blink an eyelid when a salesperson tries to upsell them into a crap product that they have 300 of in the storeroom taking up space, but then will complain that a dive shop sells them something they find out six months later that they don't need.

All salespeople are the same. You wouldn't buy a second hand car without educating yourself about what you are buying..... so why is it the dive shops fault that consumers don't educate themselves before buying dive gear???? :cool2:

Let's ignore the fact that a lot of dive shops are locked into preferential supplier agreements with particular wholesalers, and can't offer a wider range of options....

I think the disconnect comes about in scuba diving because there is an inherent conflict of interest between dive instruction and gear sales. A quality class will teach you how to use your kit efficiently, and provide tips on how to minimize your gear for simplicity and streamlining. The dive shop is primarily interested in maximizing profits by selling you more. If there are two solutions to a given problem, you can almost always count on them to sell you the more expensive (and usually more complex) solution.

This inherent conflict often results in dive shops placing more emphasis on profit than on quality ... particularly with instruction ... quality instruction, after all, costs the shop more than crappy instruction.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[a22shady]

the on thing i dont like about Diveshops and this is only from people I know and what I have seen. Is that after you train and a Place and buy all your equipment at a place you would think. You consider yourself a good customer and that the shop would want to keep you and would do the little extra to make you happy. But nope normal price or more and this is where alot of Dive shops loose bussines to online.

 

[Sas]

I've been in a local dive store filling my tank many times when a customer would come in asking about specific knowledge of some fairly local dive sites when the manager would just tell them to go ask that guy.

I understand that they may not be able to go to every dive site in the state but when they have no knowledge of any dive site other than training sites and have no knowledge of planning for currents or other more or less required knowledge of local conditions it's a bit much.

Yea sounds like the shop I certified with. The owner supposedly has 10000+ dives (I'm guessing from the amount of times I've seen him dive other than in a pool or a few shop trips a year to the tropics that he must log pool dives to make up that number) and knows everything about everywhere apparently. When I was brand new (about 20 dives) the weather looked bad and he said there was no where in the bay to dive. Anyway eventually we got just the same of a site to do and the conditions were beautiful. There was many shop dives run in the most atrocious conditions as he had no idea how to read the weather. There has not been a single weekend in the last two years that there has been nowhere in the local bay to dive, just sometimes you might have to drive further - the only times I've missed diving on the weekend (maybe five times) it's because I've been away on holidays. And I never get conditions as bad as the shop dives I used to go on used to have as I know which sites will be calm based on the wind. There are no words to express how much of a moron this guy is.

 

[AndyNZ]

Most people I know try to get discounts on any big ticket item from electrical goods to computer goods to dive gear. I don't see it as any different in the diving industry other than that the dive industry expects loyalty from customers in return.

Man, and the Aussies I know make jokes about Kiwis being tight!!!

I think the main difference is the margins, to be honest. Margins on dive gear are fairly tight.

It's fairly common here for someone to go into a shop, ask for discount, get that written down as a quote and then go to the next shop and ask them to beat it. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but in an environment like that I can understand why dive shops wish to work along the lines of "sure, but please come back and buy from us again".

I do the same with service items such as ringing around for car service items. It is astonishing to me the difference I get in price between companies for the same work, and also interesting to see the different prices my boyfriend will get if he rings up on my behalf... Why would I not ask for a discount?

Personally, I wouldn't ask for discount in a store (any store) that I didn't have a long term relationship with.

Are you saying that you would walk into a bookshop and ask for discount? Or your supermarket? Or Burger King?

Also there is the fact that the diving industry encourages people asking for discounting by setting the price at the recommended retail price given by the manufacturer, which is a lot higher than one can get the same good for online. If local dive shops gave fair prices I wouldn't ask for discount. There are a few places where I have bought gear without asking for a discount as I know I'm getting a damn good deal from the start.

The main difference between prices is simply the number of hands it's passed through before it is sold.

For example, if I want to buy a scubapro reg here - it goes from SP in the US, to SP in Aus, to an Australian wholesaler who sells it (in very low volume) to a NZ wholesaler who sells it to a shop. An online shop generally has much fewer people in the chain trying to make a living out of it.

I'm not arguing that online shops are bad, far from it! Online shops are driving shops to rethink how they make their money, which ultimately will lead to higher training costs.... which is a good thing! It's just really easy to vilify the shops when they are actually in a really hard spot trying to make a living, just like the rest of us.

 

[Sas]

Man, and the Aussies I know make jokes about Kiwis being tight!!!

Really? I had not heard that stereotype about Kiwis. I don't think I'm tight, happy to pay for decent quality gear, just not more than I have to. But if that makes me tight oh well

I think the main difference is the margins, to be honest. Margins on dive gear are fairly tight.

In comparison to what?

It's fairly common here for someone to go into a shop, ask for discount, get that written down as a quote and then go to the next shop and ask them to beat it. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but in an environment like that I can understand why dive shops wish to work along the lines of "sure, but please come back and buy from us again".

I don't do that. I don't play places off each other. I ring up and ask for their price and if it is not to my liking I move on. I generally have a good idea of the price I want before I do this and this makes it easy to work out the stores I won't be interested in doing business with. It's cheaper to play stores off each other though but in shops where I do want to have some sort of ongoing relationship it is not good practice. Though still doesn't deserve poor treatment like I have seen some stores act towards customers who do this but sometimes customers like that aren't worth it anyway. I don't think the customer is always right

Personally, I wouldn't ask for discount in a store (any store) that I didn't have a long term relationship with.

I am the opposite. Stores I have long term relationships with have been ones I haven't had to ask for discounts at.

Are you saying that you would walk into a bookshop and ask for discount? Or your supermarket? Or Burger King?

I buy all my books off the internet, much more cheaply than I would get them locally. I don't feel like I need any further discount. Supermarket items are too small to ask for discounts. I don't haggle over things that are not big ticket items.

The main difference between prices is simply the number of hands it's passed through before it is sold.

As a typical consumer, I have zero interest in where my product has been beforehand. As long as I get a good price, whatever.

For example, if I want to buy a scubapro reg here - it goes from SP in the US, to SP in Aus, to an Australian wholesaler who sells it (in very low volume) to a NZ wholesaler who sells it to a shop. An online shop generally has much fewer people in the chain trying to make a living out of it.

I imagine this is true.

I'm not arguing that online shops are bad, far from it! Online shops are driving shops to rethink how they make their money, which ultimately will lead to higher training costs.... which is a good thing! It's just really easy to vilify the shops when they are actually in a really hard spot trying to make a living, just like the rest of us.

I agree. I only vilify shops that are deliberately dishonest though. In any industry. Not ones that are just expensive and without much knowledge about diving.

You're doing pretty well though.

Thanks. It's quite therapeutic.

 

[AndyNZ]

That's a rather weak argument. Unless you become an instructor like me you can't voice your opinion...not buying it!

It was a facetious comment. It's really easy to take a swipe at shops when you haven't actually realised that they have their own set of issues and problems.... many of which are related to either the wholesalers or the consumers. They are often stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Maybe not become an instructor, maybe start the dive shop? Which ever is better for you... but at least make an effort to understand their problems.

I think the disconnect comes about in scuba diving because there is an inherent conflict of interest between dive instruction and gear sales. A quality class will teach you how to use your kit efficiently, and provide tips on how to minimize your gear for simplicity and streamlining. The dive shop is primarily interested in maximizing profits by selling you more. If there are two solutions to a given problem, you can almost always count on them to sell you the more expensive (and usually more complex) solution.

I agree with the first part, Bob, which is why I don't teach for a shop any more. But the latter is a fairly major gross generalisation.

For example, the shop I used to work for sold a range of BCDs from cheapo crap, a number of Mares BCDs, a number of Scubapro BCDs and Halcyon BP/Ws. Our school/rental gear was a mix of Mares, Scubapro and Halcyon.

People would walk into the shop wanting a BCD. We had a pool on site, they could try any BCD we carried as stock. We managed to sell very few BP/W set ups - despite being cheaper than many of the BCDs. People would want cheap crap, no argument about "you'll probably find that you grow out of this in six months" would wash it. Cheap was what they were looking for.

Funnily enough, half the people who didn't take our advice at the time have since come back to us and (a) complained that we sold them a crap product, and (b) now bought Halcyon BP/Ws. Sure, the Halcyon product wasn't the cheapest - but if they'd actually just bothered to try it in the pool to get over their feeling that "it doesn't look as comfortable as this other one", we would have saved them a fair wedge of cash.

Consumers need to carry some of the responsibility for the level of service they receive from dive shops, wholesalers have their part to play as well. Having worked for a dive shop, having worked for a wholesaler, having worked as an independent instructor... I have a view that there is not a simple problem here, and there is not a simple solution.

 

[AndyNZ]

Really? I had not heard that stereotype about Kiwis. I don't think I'm tight, happy to pay for decent quality gear, just not more than I have to. But if that makes me tight oh well

Kiwis are a bit like the Scots, but the arm to pocket ratio is a bit more extreme.

I don't do that. I don't play places off each other. I ring up and ask for their price and if it is not to my liking I move on. I generally have a good idea of the price I want before I do this and this makes it easy to work out the stores I won't be interested in doing business with. It's cheaper to play stores off each other though but in shops where I do want to have some sort of ongoing relationship it is not good practice. Though still doesn't deserve poor treatment like I have seen some stores act towards customers who do this but sometimes customers like that aren't worth it anyway. I don't think the customer is always right

The problem is, many people do the play off thing. The perception of dive stores of someone they don't know can be very low as a result - I agree, it is not fair to expect loyalty from someone they don't know either. It's about building a relationship that works.

I am the opposite. Stores I have long term relationships with have been ones I haven't had to ask for discounts at.

It would be an interesting thing to visit all of the parallel universes and work out which of all of the shops would now be giving you the best service overall now, irrespective of whether or not they offered you discount on the first time you went in!

As a typical consumer, I have zero interest in where my product has been beforehand. As long as I get a good price, whatever.

As an atypical consumer, I do have an interest! For example, we try and keep to the 100m diet at home - so take an active interest in where food products come from, how many hands they have been through etc. I am happy to pay more for local produce than something that has been flown in from overseas, because of both environmental and economic reasons.

By which argument, I should always buy online because the total shipping is less.... DAMN, just tied myself up with that one!

But there are other products that I avoid because of how they were made, or who has been involved in their distribution. It's not just about the price.

 

[Sas]

It would be an interesting thing to visit all of the parallel universes and work out which of all of the shops would now be giving you the best service overall now, irrespective of whether or not they offered you discount on the first time you went in!

I'm not sure what you are getting at here? (I had a late night yesterday so maybe it's just going over my head )

As an atypical consumer, I do have an interest! For example, we try and keep to the 100m diet at home - so take an active interest in where food products come from, how many hands they have been through etc. I am happy to pay more for local produce than something that has been flown in from overseas, because of both environmental and economic reasons.

I used to worry about things like this but it's too difficult to work out all of the issues surrounding whether or not I should buy from someone. I do not distinguish between local and not so local either as in the long run it makes no difference and it is better for me to support competitive businesses, whereever they may be.

But there are other products that I avoid because of how they were made, or who has been involved in their distribution. It's not just about the price.

Of course, but the ethics of a company are nearly impossible to work out, particularly large companies as they are all intertwined in weird ways... So I can no longer summon the energy to care. I basically want a decent price and decent service as well as being treated with respect by them being honest with me. They don't have to be the cheapest or the best at service, just decent and honest.