Diver Rescue

[DCBC]

GUE requires rescue skills before technical training, because rescue skills are part of Fundamentals, which is a prerequisite for GUE technical classes...

Lynne, Rescue is not required; although it's a part of the program:

2.1.4 GUE Fundamentals Course

2.1.4.2 Prerequisites

1. Must meet GUE general course prerequisites, as outlined in section 1.6
2. Must be a minimum of sixteen years of age
3. Must be a certified open-water diver from a recognized training agency

...I know that there are some on this board, including this thread's OP, who disagree quite violently with me.

I have never violently disagreed with you Lynne. Where did that come from?

 

[TSandM]

GUE Fundamentals does not require Rescue as a prerequisite; it teaches Rescue skills as part of the class, including unconscious diver retrieval. Thus those rescue skills are a prerequisite for GUE technical training, as the Fundamentals class is a prerequisite. I believe your question was which, if any agencies required Rescue before technical training. GUE and UTD don't require a class named "Rescue" but do require Rescue skills.

"Violently" may have been an overstatement. I do believe that you feel extremely strongly that rescue skills should be in open water, and I feel equally strongly that they need not be beyond what is already taught. "Vehemently" might have been a better choice of words.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Agreed! For a mod to accuse someone of "violently" disagreeing with them is simply not right nor true. Violently disagreeing implies that some physical threat was made as a result of one's views. I see no evidence of that nor of anything approaching bashing. Again when actual facts are being stated by someone from the standards why is this considered bashing? Or to state an opinion based on those facts? There have been several agencies mentioned in this thread and not always in a positive light. Yet only one merits defense? Threats of moderation should not come from participants in the thread and threads should not be moderated by those with personal interests in them.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

GUE Fundamentals does not require Rescue as a prerequisite; it teaches Rescue skills as part of the class, including unconscious diver retrieval. Thus those rescue skills are a prerequisite for GUE technical training, as the Fundamentals class is a prerequisite. I believe your question was which, if any agencies required Rescue before technical training. GUE and UTD don't require a class named "Rescue" but do require Rescue skills.

"Violently" may have been an overstatement. I do believe that you feel extremely strongly that rescue skills should be in open water, and I feel equally strongly that they need not be beyond what is already taught.

Tell that to the people who are dead as a result of buddies not being able to assist them in what were typical OW dives. Like the lady who drowned 4 ft from the surface because her buddy did not know how to support her at the surface or ditch her weight system. He was trying to hold her up by her octo. Want more? I cite 4 other fatal accidents in one of my presentations that would have had different outcomes if the OW divers involved had received some basic rescue training in OW class along with real instruction on the buddy system. The rescue training was prohibited in their classes that could have saved their lives.

 

[DCBC]

GUE Fundamentals does not require Rescue as a prerequisite; it teaches Rescue skills as part of the class, including unconscious diver retrieval. Thus those rescue skills are a prerequisite for GUE technical training, as the Fundamentals class is a prerequisite. I believe your question was which, if any agencies required Rescue before technical training. GUE and UTD don't require a class named "Rescue" but do require Rescue skills.

"Violently" may have been an overstatement. I do believe that you feel extremely strongly that rescue skills should be in open water, and I feel equally strongly that they need not be beyond what is already taught. "Vehemently" might have been a better choice of words.

Lynne Fundamentals is not required for all GUE programs, but I now understand what you are saying and I agree. As to the other statement, I believe that people should be passionate about what they enjoy. There are (imo) not enough divers that are passionate about diver training. I believe you are. As far as I'm concerned, I will always welcome your opinion. I have found it a valuable one (although I don't always agree with it).

I understand that many people on SB have strong opinions. Regardless if they agree with mine or not, I respect it; I only ask to be treated in a similar way.

 

[dbulmer]

Jim,
Without knowing the details (and the devil is always in the detail), the lady who died might have lived if she had put her OW training into practice. We are all taught to establish positive buoyancy on the surface and we all trained to release a weight belt in our OW training. I agree that a better buddy could have turned this into a no incident but basic self rescue is taught by the vast majority of OW instructors.

Please don't take what I said personally - it just sounds that the scenario you posted is at the real bad extreme of OW training.

I'd like to hear of your cases though and the detail behind it because it might help other people who feel that they should expand on their knowledge.

 

[DevonDiver]

Like the lady who drowned 4 ft from the surface because her buddy did not know how to support her at the surface or ditch her weight system. He was trying to hold her up by her octo.

This isn't a failure of rescue training.... this is a failure of basic open water training.

The lady herself failed to establish positive bouyancy on the surface, through inflation, oral inflation or weightbelt ditching. Those skills are stressed throughout the OW. course The skills are all taught in confined training and repeated in open water. The ability to establish positive buoyancy, when OOA is assessed as part of the CESA exercise.

The buddy failed to assist the lady establishing positive buoyancy on the surface. This is also taught on the OW course... as part of OOA ascent (donor and victim).

Jim.... I still feel that this makes a point for my case, and the recommendations of BSAC and DAN reports, that the biggest killer in scuba diving is the failure to adhere to safe diving practices and negligence in applying basic core skills.

 

[dbulmer]

DevonDiver,
You summed up my feelings except I think I would have said failure to adhere to safe diving practices, negligence in applying core diving skills and a failure to commit effort to the buddy system.

 

[TSandM]

DCBC, I believe either Fundamentals or the GUE OW class (Rec 1) is a prerequisite for all GUE training. Both classes teach rescue skills, including unconscious diver retrieval, I believe. And before anybody says, "Well, you said you couldn't teach those skills in OW!", the GUE OW class is OW, AOW, Nitrox and some of Rescue rolled into one class, and costs accordingly.

Jim, "violently" was used metaphorically. A metaphor means the word is not used in its literal meaning. I have no desire to be violent to DCBC -- I suspect he could deck me with both hands tucked behind his back And I have not moderated this thread at all, nor will I; I just warned you guys what will happen if the thread takes a PADI-bashing tack, as prior threads involving the same people and the same kinds of topics have done.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Lynne, Rescue is not required; although it's a part of the program:

2.1.4 GUE Fundamentals Course

2.1.4.2 Prerequisites

1. Must meet GUE general course prerequisites, as outlined in section 1.6
2. Must be a minimum of sixteen years of age
3. Must be a certified open-water diver from a recognized training agency

GUE Fundamentals is not a tech class ... it's a prerequisite to technical training ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)