DM Pay

[Ben_3]

All the DM’s from my groupe went on to instructor almost right away after seeing what DM’s get paid. Also Divemaster have very limited things they can do this limiting possibilities of making money. Maybe that should be changed..

 

[Mike Walker]

Was not intended to be ''universally'' accurate...nor was it implied it was...

Your exact quote was:

"In Canada...the Provincial Occupational Health and Safety Acts...define what a worker is...and in order to be classified as a worker...and to be protected as a worker in the Act(s)...you have to receive money...free air/chickens/bags of flour...don't cut it..."

That's more than implying - it's specifically stating that what you say applies to all of Canada.
It doesn't.
Hence the correction.

Suggest reading your Alberta Occupational Health and Safety Act...

Here is the definition of a worker from Alberta OH&S documents:

“worker” means a person engaged in an occupation, including a person who performs or supplies services for no monetary compensation for an organization or employer and, for greater certainty, includes a self-employed person....

Going further here's the very first statement in the body of the act:

3(1) Every employer shall ensure, as far as it is reasonably practicable for the employer to do so,
(a) the health and safety and welfare of
(i) workers engaged in the work of that employer,
(ii) those workers not engaged in the work of that employer but present at the work site at which that work is being carried out, and
(iii) other persons at or in the vicinity of the work site who may be affected by hazards originating from the work site,

You'll note that my post also includes a link to a clarification document provided by Alberta WCB for OH&S insurance coverage clearly showing that it applies to unpaid volunteers and that those engaging their services are required to pay in accordingly.

It sounds like Ontario may be different. Which is fine. I think we agree that those 'working' (in whatever context) as dive guides need to be careful (or, better yet, stop doing the 'for free' BS and charge what they are worth...). However, the DMs are only one party to these 'informal' work arrangements and not the only potential victim of misunderstanding or misinformation. Your original statement was factually inaccurate for some jurisdictions encompassed within your "in Canada' prefix and potentially harmful to, for example, a business owner from another part of Canada who might read it and assume you are correct only to find out he actually had a bunch of 'workers' on his boat that he was responsible for.

Where it gets really tricky is if an individual gets another individual to provide services for 'token' compensation - say, critter spotting for beers - if things go wrong, who is on the hook? One could take a look at court cases related to uninsured handymen or cleaners working for cash or less for some possible outcomes....

Anyways, my point to anyone reading this thread is:
Do your own research and make sure it is specific to your location.
This might be as fine-grained as a given municipality but certainly at the provincial/state/canton/governate/etc. level.
It might also be different on the water and off.

It's easy to read confident sounding but overly broad statements on the internet and assume it also applies to you.
I'm trying to poke holes in the authority of those statements - including the ones issued by myself.

(My involvement with SCUBA is only as a consumer - but my business is tightly tied to another often 'informal' industry that sees very similar working arrangements.)

 

[W W Meixner]

Your exact quote was:

"In Canada...the Provincial Occupational Health and Safety Acts...define what a worker is...and in order to be classified as a worker...and to be protected as a worker in the Act(s)...you have to receive money...free air/chickens/bags of flour...don't cut it..."

That's more than implying - it's specifically stating that what you say applies to all of Canada.
It doesn't.
Hence the correction.



Here is the definition of a worker from Alberta OH&S documents:

“worker” means a person engaged in an occupation, including a person who performs or supplies services for no monetary compensation for an organization or employer and, for greater certainty, includes a self-employed person....

Going further here's the very first statement in the body of the act:

3(1) Every employer shall ensure, as far as it is reasonably practicable for the employer to do so,
(a) the health and safety and welfare of
(i) workers engaged in the work of that employer,
(ii) those workers not engaged in the work of that employer but present at the work site at which that work is being carried out, and
(iii) other persons at or in the vicinity of the work site who may be affected by hazards originating from the work site,

You'll note that my post also includes a link to a clarification document provided by Alberta WCB for OH&S insurance coverage clearly showing that it applies to unpaid volunteers and that those engaging their services are required to pay in accordingly.

It sounds like Ontario may be different. Which is fine. I think we agree that those 'working' (in whatever context) as dive guides need to be careful (or, better yet, stop doing the 'for free' BS and charge what they are worth...). However, the DMs are only one party to these 'informal' work arrangements and not the only potential victim of misunderstanding or misinformation. Your original statement was factually inaccurate for some jurisdictions encompassed within your "in Canada' prefix and potentially harmful to, for example, a business owner from another part of Canada who might read it and assume you are correct only to find out he actually had a bunch of 'workers' on his boat that he was responsible for.

Where it gets really tricky is if an individual gets another individual to provide services for 'token' compensation - say, critter spotting for beers - if things go wrong, who is on the hook? One could take a look at court cases related to uninsured handymen or cleaners working for cash or less for some possible outcomes....

Anyways, my point to anyone reading this thread is:
Do your own research and make sure it is specific to your location.
This might be as fine-grained as a given municipality but certainly at the provincial/state/canton/governate/etc. level.
It might also be different on the water and off.

It's easy to read confident sounding but overly broad statements on the internet and assume it also applies to you.
I'm trying to poke holes in the authority of those statements - including the ones issued by myself.

(My involvement with SCUBA is only as a consumer - but my business is tightly tied to another often 'informal' industry that sees very similar working arrangements.)

Mike...

Agreed...

Not only to charge what you're worth...but to ensure you're protected in the event of workplace accidents/injuries/illnesses...which in some cases last long after the weekly reimbursement for the work performed has been spent...

Imagine losing a lifetime worth of income...after being permanently injured while performing a ''fills and favors'' job...for which you were not eligible for accident/injury/illness compensation...

W...

 

[TMHeimer]

Some have said you can be a professional even though you do something all the time, and forever (not like a Dr. who volunteers to do some overseas work gratis for a while), and never get any money for it.
Fair enough, we simply disagree.
Just my OP interpretation of the quote--
--professional= "...for compensation".
--compensation= money paid by a boss.
I respect other interpretations & cultural differences.

 

[pauldw]

Like a lot of words, “professional” can have different meanings. If you play sports or music for money, as opposed to as a hobby, then you’re a professional athlete or musician. If you behave like an adult, instead of like a jerk, then you were acting professionally. The sense in which doctors and lawyers are professionals, though, along with architects and a few other things, has to do with difference between a profession and a vocation, and doesn’t have anything to do with employment laws. A profession is characterized by work involving extensive education, independence, and the requirement to use one’s on judgment to figure out what to do without just following some sort of job-related checklist. A vocation is a job that isn’t a profession. Obviously there’s some overlap. Not all white collar jobs are professions; most blue collar jobs are vocations. This isn’t an employment law classification, it’s more cultural in origin.

 

[TMHeimer]

Like a lot of words, “professional” can have different meanings. If you play sports or music for money, as opposed to as a hobby, then you’re a professional athlete or musician. If you behave like an adult, instead of like a jerk, then you were acting professionally. The sense in which doctors and lawyers are professionals, though, along with architects and a few other things, has to do with difference between a profession and a vocation, and doesn’t have anything to do with employment laws. A profession is characterized by work involving extensive education, independence, and the requirement to use one’s on judgment to figure out what to do without just following some sort of job-related checklist. A vocation is a job that isn’t a profession. Obviously there’s some overlap. Not all white collar jobs are professions; most blue collar jobs are vocations. This isn’t an employment law classification, it’s more cultural in origin.

Yes, exactly my words. Another example is that of musician. If a musician gets paid, we are called "professional musicians", many who belong to the union. Yet musicians play gigs -- aka jobs, so I would not refer music as being s "profession". Some may have (multiple) college degrees, many don't. Nor would I consider baseball a profession, yet I'd call those in MLB and the minors "professional atheletes". They get paid. But, so do Postal workers, and that's definately not a "profession". Semantics I guess.

 

[abnfrog]

you do not have to be covered under the owners WSIB you can be a sub contractor then the WSIB is on you ...... the employer still has some obligations but its limited .some one who has worked for other people all their lives AND never been a 'dive professional " wouldn't know that as some one who has owned 2 dive shops and a chrome plating facility for over 20 years I HAVE employed sub contractors in all the business's

 

[Scraps]

Another professional/non-professional distinction:

In addition to diving, I also umpire baseball—and it pays more per hour than being a divemaster. The distinction between professional and amateur umpires is not the pay status of the umpire—but that of the players. All umpires (except volunteer adults working Little League) get paid.

Professional umpires work games played by professional players; amateur umpires work games played by unpaid players.

However, as an amateur umpire, I can make more money than a professional umpire in the low minor leagues can. That’s because the rookie league and single-A umpires are the disposable up-or-out, sink-or-swim, how-bad-do-you-want-the-dream divemaster equivalents of the baseball world.

 

[JamesBon92007]

If I was young and broke I'd probably go for it simply because I'd get to go on lots of dives without paying money to get on the dive boat. Of course, most people would probably have to have another means of support...

 

[runsongas]

i'd imagine most DM's would be considered "semi-professional" in that they have a primary job other than being a DM, whether it be non-dive related, or as a dive shop employee, or some type of boat crew member.