Do we need instructors?

[trixiegirl1970]

(Actually, this thread could be called...Would you teach someone to dive...it's not a slam on instructors).

If not for the litigious nature of our (US) society would we really "need" instructors?

I'm not saying that we wouldn't but I'm just posing the question. In several other sports most training if not all in some cases is done by mentoring.

We have mentoring in scuba in additional to traditional instructors/courses.

If you didn't have to worry about the legal aspects of teaching someone else to scuba dive would you do it? (assume either calm warm water nearby or access to a pool)

Would you do it for strangers, close friends, family members?

Assume that there were no legal issues and that getting air would be no problem without "a card".

There would be no time pressure and you could be a through as you wanted...

I always find it interesting how few people actually answer the questions that are asked. IMHO - I would teach if there were not legal reprecussions. I have wanted to be an instructor since my first certification in 91... but it has never been in the cards for me time or money wise. I am an educator and I guess it is just natural for me to want everyone to experience the same experiences I get excited about.

I would happily pass any knowledge I have to anyone interested. I tell everyone I know that they should try diving - it is the most relaxing and exhilarating experience all at the same time.

 

[Paladin]

You know, something just occurred to me. In a world where many things are common knowledge and are part of the everyday learning experience, SCUBA remains as secretive as the Jedi of Star Wars lore. To the general public, SCUBA is like some mystical activity that only a few individuals possessing extraordinary skills and intelligence and trained by an elite cadre of masters can accomplish.

Practically every other sort of knowledge is at least touched upon in the public school curriculum: Electricity and electronics; chemistry, biology, driver safety, nuclear physics, etc. Knowledgeable high school student understands the physics behind the operation of an internal combustion engine, the components in an electric motor and how they work together to make it spin; the effects of rapid gas expansion in an explosion and what causes it and so on. Mr. Everyman possesses a vast wealth of practical knowledge and wisdom about the world around him, giving him myriad choices about what he wants or needs to do on a daily basis.

TV shows, movies, documentaries and other public media continuously bombard the public with at least bits and pieces of knowledge which urges interested persons to do further research in a selected area. You ask a kid about how an airplane flies and he can describe the chapter on aeronautics he studied in his high school science class or what he learned from watching a Discovery Channel special. Ask him how to fire a rifle and he can detail the procedure from countless hunting and shooting programs he has watched and from the instruction he gained from his father or uncle. Like as not, he can also tell you the basic components and operation of a Hiroshima-style atom bomb as well. But ask him about SCUBA and all he can tell you is that divers strap on a bunch of mysterious-looking equipment and jump into the water. The public is left to gaze in awe and wonder at those intrepid souls who persevere and seek out training; themselves being indoctrinated into believing they are special individuals who have gained a secret, forbidden knowledge.

But what would happen if the science and practice of SCUBA were to become common knowledge? What if high school science books contained a chapter on the physics of SCUBA, of the effects of gasses under pressure and in solution and how they apply to divers?

I wonder.

 

[leapfrog]

By self serving crap, I mean this "we can't do it for liability" excuse that is standard in scuba.

I would ask you, please, to take more care with your language. If I'm working at an LDS and it's my call, I don't make the decision based on liability because although there may be one, it's the person's safety I'm interested in. Let me qualify this. Actually, I'm interested in the safety of the guys who may have to out and rescue him or retrieve the body. It's also a question of taxpayers' money. Why do we all have to pay for people who may be plain stupid? Then of course there's my own inconvenience and embarassment of explaining to the the Police, the public safety dive rescue team and the Coast Guard why I gave him the fill.

If we had the same "we are going to make you safer and us less liable approach" adopted by the rest of society, you couldn't eat in a resturant because you might choke, we can't sell you gas because you might wreck, we can sell you rope because you might hang yourself ect. Fortuneatly no one blames the rope manufactures or the hardware store selling the rope.

Within this context, I don't care about what other people or businesses do.

The argument of a LDS selling air or a service is like arguing a resturant isn't selling food but is providing food preparation services.

Restauants reserve the right of admission. Apart from this I have never thought of offering an air fill as the service that an LDS performs. At the ones I have worked, it's not very common and we usually gave them to boat owners who have tanks on their boats for maintenance purposes (before you ask, yes, they are all divers with a proficiency level to do so).

The industry is over self regulating on the issue of filling tanks and much of that self regulation is instructional profit driven.

There is no profit in tank fills.

Buying food at a McDonalds is a convenience, just as buying air at a shop is a convenience.

You really think that LDS are in the air fill convenience business?

My beef is with the training monopoly the established agencies have created and the "no card no air" rule they employ to enforce it.

You are mixed up and mistaken. There is absolutely no rule, no guideline or even suggestion on the part of agencies about LDS giving air fills to people, certified or otherwise. Where do you get these ideas?

Yes, it is a form of monopoly.

I beg to differ. There is healthy competition. Definitely not a MONOPOLY. Not even an OLIGOPOLY.

Just because there are a handful of agencies with slightly different rules does not change this. They have agreed on how they want things done, how they can maximize their profits and have devised a way to enforce it. In a sense, they have become a law unto themselves.

"A law unto themselves?" And you're the guy that supports GOVERNMENT REGULATION?

I've taught a number of people to drive. Over the years since, some of them have had accidents...

Now you're frightening me.

...under the law, the responsibility for those accidents rests on them, not me.

Wow, you must be very popular in your neighborhood!

So now you need to see a solo c-card to do a fill? You now ask everyone what their dive plans are for that bottle of air?

No. I need to know if you know how to dive and if you are planning to Solo Dive, if you have had training and are experienced. If you don't like it, get your fill at the next LDS.

 

[I Dive]

You know, something just occurred to me. In a world where many things are common knowledge and are part of the everyday learning experience, SCUBA remains as secretive as the Jedi of Star Wars lore. To the general public, SCUBA is like some mystical activity that only a few individuals possessing extraordinary skills and intelligence and trained by an elite cadre of masters can accomplish.

Practically every other sort of knowledge is at least touched upon in the public school curriculum: Electricity and electronics; chemistry, biology, driver safety, nuclear physics, etc. Knowledgeable high school student understands the physics behind the operation of an internal combustion engine, the components in an electric motor and how they work together to make it spin; the effects of rapid gas expansion in an explosion and what causes it and so on. Mr. Everyman possesses a vast wealth of practical knowledge and wisdom about the world around him, giving him myriad choices about what he wants or needs to do on a daily basis.

TV shows, movies, documentaries and other public media continuously bombard the public with at least bits and pieces of knowledge which urges interested persons to do further research in a selected area. You ask a kid about how an airplane flies and he can describe the chapter on aeronautics he studied in his high school science class or what he learned from watching a Discovery Channel special. Ask him how to fire a rifle and he can detail the procedure from countless hunting and shooting programs he has watched and from the instruction he gained from his father or uncle. Like as not, he can also tell you the basic components and operation of a Hiroshima-style atom bomb as well. But ask him about SCUBA and all he can tell you is that divers strap on a bunch of mysterious-looking equipment and jump into the water. The public is left to gaze in awe and wonder at those intrepid souls who persevere and seek out training; themselves being indoctrinated into believing they are special individuals who have gained a secret, forbidden knowledge.

But what would happen if the science and practice of SCUBA were to become common knowledge? What if high school science books contained a chapter on the physics of SCUBA, of the effects of gasses under pressure and in solution and how they apply to divers?

I wonder.

Master Yoda,
I know the ways of the Force and they are powerful... Unfortunately, I don't think SCUBA is as much of a mystery as you feel it is. It has already been stated in this thread that there is a wealth of SCUBA knowledge available to anyone who wants it. Just type "how to scuba dive" into Google.. Even if a person does that and is stricken with horrible experience of being diverted to the website of one of the evil certifying agencies, they can look at the requirements for training and quickly realize there is nothing elite about being a diver. And judging from the physical fitness level of a lot of people I've seen on Cattle boats, anyone else who has witnessed the same cannot possibly come away feeling like divers are an elite bunch of anything...

 

[DaleC]

2. I don't feel that I, as an individual, am being attacked. I think that there are some people putting forward a case with which I don't agree as a generality.

So on a thread discussing “Are Instructors necessary” I am attacked for making my comments as an instructor.

You said it not me.

Here is a perfect example of not reading someones post (or reading into it your own conclusions).

The same person then says in their next post but doesn’t actually reach a cut and dried conclusion because the answer may conflict with their previous post.

You then go on to say: Here is a clear argument in favor of professional instruction versus mentoring. When you turn your pastime into a profession you can suffer burnout.

What I actually said was the answer to question #2 was subjective (ie a personal opinion not quantifiable that will vary person to person depending on their unique circumstances). I then gave my personal opinion and the personal reasons for it. You somehow however, extrapolate my subjective, personal opinion as an objective reason for supporting your argument.

This explains a lot to me regarding your reactions:

I know you are not deriding me personally. I admit to having been slightly on edge when there is a mob (I’m not referring to you) making a case for having me blown out of the water to be replaced with amigos who do some diving.

You are taking this way to personally while at the same time denigrating others. Where's the mob trying to blow you out of the water? As you said, this is just a discussion on the internet. However, while you are busy feeling attacked you go on to say anyone who is not an "instructor" is an "amigo who does some diving"? Perhaps you are not aware of how condescending that sounds?

I won't even bother to discuss professional burnout because you seem to have either no experience with it or at best an academic understandiing. FWIW, My first encounter with professional burnout had to do with a high risk position coupled with extended isolated exposures. My second encounter has more to do with being a small businessman and having to wear too many hats 24/7. Neither has to do with turning a pastime into a profession.

Show me the SCUBA instructor that got into the sport professionally without first enjoying it as a pastime

 

[Paladin]

I Dive: I was merely making an observation. SCUBA knowledge must be actively sought out. It is not in the realm of common knowledge. This has the effect of leaving the "perception" of mystery to the general public.

But don't take my word for it. Go out on the street and ask a few people (who do not know you) and ask them what they know about SCUBA and how one becomes a diver. You might be a bit surprised by their answers.

Leapfrog: It might help if you didn't take sentences and parts of sentences from posters out of context.

 

[I Dive]

I Dive: I was merely making an observation. SCUBA knowledge must be actively sought out. It is not in the realm of common knowledge. This has the effect of leaving the "perception" of mystery to the general public.

I'm not attackin ya man! I'm just saying I don't agree. But, maybe you are right. I like your idea, I very well may do that.

 

[Paladin]

I Dive, I know you were not attacking me. Attacking my ideas, maybe...

 

[DaleC]

What will happen to the SCUBA industry when a cheap, reliable compressor comes onto the market? Will those who say "go get your fills somewhere else" change their tune when the customer says "OK". I'm thinking of the effect that internet sales has had on LDS's. Will shops change and give customers what they want (and forget about putting themselves in the position of judge and jury) or will they stick to their guns and simply fail.

I get my fills from a home based compressor. Not so much because it's half the price (though that doesn't hurt) but more because the owner lets me dive the way I want to dive and doesn't have a cow over soloing or vintage gear. I want air, not someones opinion on diving.

 

[leapfrog]

You said it not me.

I SAID: I don't feel that I, as an individual, am being attacked. I think that there are some people putting forward a case with which I don't agree as a generality. What are you saying I said?

So on a thread discussing “Do we need Instructors” I am attacked for making my comments as an instructor....Here is a perfect example of not reading someones post (or reading into it your own conclusions).

You said that on Scubaboard I was just another diver and that I was on my self important soapbox, simply because you didn't like what I was saying. I insist. The name of the thread is "Do we need Instructors?" So I will continue to post in my capacity as an instructor. However much you dislike it, I've earned that privilege.

What I actually said was the answer to question #2 was subjective (ie a personal opinion not quantifiable that will vary person to person depending on their unique circumstances). I then gave my personal opinion and the personal reasons for it. You somehow however, extrapolate my subjective, personal opinion as an objective reason for supporting your argument.

If you make an argument under Point 1 and then start to make another one under Point 2 that goes in the other direction without reaching a conclusion, then I take it that in fact you have reasons to believe that my case is in fact correct.

This explains a lot to me regarding your reactions

Go on....

You are taking this way to personally while at the same time denigrating others.

You still don't get this do you? It's not personal, it's about my chosen professon. Expressing and maintaining an opinon is not denigrating others. Just so you have it clear, freedom of speech gives me the right to maintain a minority, unpopular point of view, on a public medium until hell freezes over.

Where's the mob trying to blow you out of the water?

It's called rhetoric. I was paraphrasing "A majority opinion in favor of instructors being ousted and replaced by mentors".

However, while you are busy feeling attacked you go on to say anyone who is not an "instructor" is an "amigo who does some diving"? Perhaps you are not aware of how condescending that sounds?

No, I did not say ANYONE. I said that clearly referring to mentors taking over instructional roles. You're purposely twisting my words because you have nothing else of value to say.

I won't even bother to discuss professional burnout because you seem to have either no experience with it or at best an academic understandiing.

You are right. I have never had professional burnout.

FWIW, My first encounter with professional burnout had to do with a high risk position coupled with extended isolated exposures.

Do you think you have taken higher risks in your life than me? Tell me more, I'm interested.

My second encounter has more to do with being a small businessman and having to wear too many hats 24/7.

What relevance does this have to the thread, Scubaboard or Scuba Diving? You're no different from thousands of small businessmen all over the world. Live with it and move on.

Neither has to do with turning a pastime into a profession.

That was your phrase, not mine.

Show me the SCUBA instructor that got into the sport professionally without first enjoying it as a pastime

Here.