Effect of slow compartments size in relation to NDL and DECO

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and if you want to use that analogy, what happens when you change speed? and don't realize it, and your passengers are asleep? all of a sudden that distance isn't relevant anymore

Uhm... I think you mean what happens when your passengers are asleep and you fall asleep too. All of a sudden the distance becomes independent of your tank capacity and relatively very short.
(Because d = t * v and changing the v will only change the d if the t is constant etc.)
 
Uhm... I think you mean what happens when your passengers are asleep and you fall asleep too. All of a sudden the distance becomes independent of your tank capacity and relatively very short.
(Because d = t * v and changing the v will only change the d if the t is constant etc.)

d=t*v yes, but that's assuming that fuel economy is a constant. Fuel economy is a variable as a function of speed so it doesn't apply
 
I'll be honest; I can't help but maintain reservations - but I'd be happy to hear more from you about the instances you tell me about - I'm based in Europe, and I don't think the water's all that different. Would you mind expanding on this via pm with me?
I can't really relate to an incontextual narrative, I'm sure you understand.
I am currently in Europe myself, in Monaco, to be exact. I am on a 3-week vacation, squeezing in time to post here and there. I will be in France the rest of the time, and my wife is not happy that I am typing now.


I know, circles, but - again, are you really sure these divers were UTD-trained to dive at the level they were diving? We're not talking about doing a quick workshop on RD and off we go sort of scenario here..?
These were two good friends of mine who had done, many, many, many dives at this level and who were both certified UTD Tech II.

The one with the Ph.D privately expressed a lot of reservations about the science behind it all, but he trusted his instructor. He trusted him all the way on his dives with him, even the last one he did with him.

I doubt they will ever find his body
 
d=t*v yes, but that's assuming that fuel economy is a constant. Fuel economy is a variable as a function of speed so it doesn't apply

...and yet, we don't strand ourselves, even so the alert saying "low fuel" won't kick in till we haven't enough petrol to reach the next garage. Why? Because we drive the car, get used to the car, understand the impact that speed has on fuel consumption, and can think.
That's all without 2 other cars in a motorcade, with each their driver on the same page as us.

We don't need all the automation. It has so much potential to take away from us capacity as d(r)ivers, and offers so very little in return. That's my take on it, anyway.
 
d=t*v yes, but that's assuming that fuel economy is a constant. Fuel economy is a variable as a function of speed so it doesn't apply

Oh yeah? What if it's all down hill from there? And everyone's asleep at the wheel.
 
@boulderjohn I'll appreciate any details you might have to share, if you have a moment for a pm after your holiday. Enjoy Europe and your holiday.
 
Allow me to elaborate.

There may be some confusion about HT: if you start with more of something, even if the rate will be the same, then you need more periods to get to same end quantity, I will demonstrate below.

We are look at the dissolved gas model.

The model is determined by:
Number of compartments;
Half Times of each compartment;
M-Value for each compartment;
Half Times and M0 Values come in pairs, these define a compartment.
The relations are determined by the model in terms of gradients and rates and concentrations,
absolute quantities of gas are never taken in account, in the model.

Why should absolute quantities be taken in consideration by dive computers?
Because: they can, contemporary technology computing power allows; divers have different sizes of tissues; there are more divers; there are more divers who are obese; there is a higher risks of DCS incidence associated with obesity.

Because the size of the compartments does matter.
I will demonstrate now how two divers on same dive end up with different N2.

Peter is 275lbs or 124kg and has Body Fat of 20% (BFP) with 25kg of fat and Paul has 35% BFP at 200lbs or 90kgs, is obese with 31.5 kg fat.

For each diver, how many grams of N2 are dissolved in in 1 liter of compartment F with Half Time 120 minutes (HT) at given constant temperature? Dive depth is 30 meters or 100ft.

Given KH of N2 in aqueous solution = 1600 atm/(mol/liter)
At equilibrium (saturation) the concentration is directly proportional to the partial pressure of N2 in the solution.

P=KHC
C=P/KH
C=4 atm / 1600 atm/(mol/L)
C=0.0025 mol/L

Convert to grams:
mass of one mole of N2=28g
g of N2 = mol N2 x 28
= 0.0025 x 28 g/mol
= 0,07g

1L of fat = 0.9 kg fat
1L of fat will hold 0,063g N2 when saturated at 30 meters or 100ft.

Peter: 25x0.063 = 1.6kg N2
Paul: 31.5x0.063 = 2 kg N2

Once saturation is reached, it is reached, Peter's and Paul's compartment F won't hold more than what they can respectively.

So after 40 minutes of dive time, 30m-100ft, how much is the residue N2?

In this dive one whole HT period is not yet reached, the dive is 40 minutes so far, one half time is 120 minutes.

To build the table we take some values as anchor points:
F initial(g) time HT remains(g)
Peter 1600 120 120 800
Paul 2000 120 120 1000

Then:

120 minute compartment F
minutes %HT
40 20 <---
80 40
120 50
240 75
360 87.5
600 97,76
720 96.80
840 98.44
24h 100?
48h 100

Peter: saturation is 20% of 1.6 kg = 0.32 kg
Paul: saturation is 20% of 2.0 kg = 0.40 kg

Paul has more gas in his body.

Behold! Same HT but different absolute N2 mass or volume between the divers before starting ascent.

Now we look below at when the divers have ascended for 10 minutes to reach 0 meters.
The time they took to ascend is not 40 minutes but 10.

Peter: saturation is 8% of 0.32 kg = 0.30 kg
Paul: saturation is 8% of 0.40 kg = 0.37 kg

Paul has still more gas in his body than Peter.

Behold! Same HT but different absolute N2 mass or volume between the divers at the end of the dive.

So how should the absolute quantity be reflected in the model?

Peter's 30 meter NDL for compartment F with say M0 14.41
(Using DSAT 9 for sake of example because DSAT compartments have HT with nice round numbers):

k (Cpt F) = ln2/half-time = 0.693/120 min = 0.005775
Pi = (Pamb - PH2O)*FN2 = (40 msw - 0.627 msw)*0.79 = 31.1 msw
Po = (Pamb - PH20)*FN2 = (10 msw - 0.627 msw)*0.79 = 7.4 msw

The "No-Stop Time" or NDL for this compartment,
t = (-1/k)*ln[(Pi - Mo)/(Pi - Po)]
t (Cpt F) = (-1.0/0.005775)*ln[(31.1 - 14.41)/(31.1 - 7.4)] = 60.72 minutes

The model predicts NDL for that compartment which is wrong for Paul. Paul needs M0 to be adjusted (decreased) for the compartment.
Adjusting Paul's F to F+ M0 value of one whole increment to next the compartment value of 14.06 (DSAT 10) would give him:

The "No-Stop Time" or NDL for this compartment:
t (Cpt F) = (-1.0/0.005775)*ln[(31.1 - 14.06)/(31.1 - 7.4)] = 57.13 minutes

There are at least 2 implications:

A. At overpressure Paul has more gas than Peter, which could lead to start bubbling before Peter would.
B. Peter and Paul's computers display the same residue N2, which is false!

While for A. there are settings than can be adjusted (GF high, GF low) to mitigate the risk of bubbling, there are no dive planning adjustments for surfacing M-values for B., in the current model.

I put it to you, that divers should be allowed to adjust M0 for F(n=1 to 16), across all compartments.

In the above example the greater compartment size of one diver's compartment 9 has been taken in account by assigning to compartment 9 the M0 of compartment 10. Such setting is easy to imagine and implement.

The adjustment could be made in increments such that for every kg of body fat above 20% (BFP) the compartment saturation be considered holding additional 0,064 kg of N2 at saturation as default adjustable value.

The calculation could be later revised considering KH of N2 in fat as opposed to in water.

Further, it is known that larger changes in depth at deeper depths have equivalent changes in P halving than at shallower depths, when ascending from 50 meters to 20 meters P is halved, when ascending from 10 meters to 0 meters P is halved.

I put it to you, that ascent speed ideally be not linear but should diminish as shallower depths are reached.
Deep stops allow for "slow" compartments to saturate and slow down the ascent rate already at deeper depths, they are not aligned with P halving. Settings with not too low GFlow, not to high GF high determine a DECO schedule which shapes the overall ascent to be not linear, flattening at shallower depths.

Disclaimer: the above contains errors.

Safe diving!

Narke
 
@narke If your logic was applicable, then we would have had dive tables set for body weight ranges decades ago.
Why do you believe that the risk of DCS is tied to overall volume of inert gas as opposed to the tissue saturation percentage?

@Dr Simon Mitchell hopefully has something he can throw in, but you are not making any sense at all in your assumptions
 
It's simply amazing that all the scientists conducting all those experiments over all those decades not only never thought of this, they never noticed those obvious results in their experiments. Those that are still alive will no doubt feel like total dunces once they read your analysis. Why didn't we think of that? How did we not notice those effects in our test subjects? I cannot wait until you publish your analysis and we get the ensuing cataclysmic change in dive theory. Once you have proven that all previous dive theory is wrong, you will justifiably be honored as the new father of modern dive theory.
 
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