Epic Goliath diving and more deaths +

[danvolker]

Actually, you are nitpicking some words and ignoring others: "Sampling spawning aggregations is the most cost effective and scientifically accurate way to obtain the age structure of adults in this case." Read the full context. It is clear. She is talking about the sampling process and the best way to conduct the sampling. She mentioned the aggregations because that is where the greatest concentration of adult fish can be found. Maybe her phrasing was off on the "entire breeding" population because that was not the focus of either the question or her response. Besides, how do you know that the entire breeding population is not at the aggregations? Maybe there are some, even many, adult fish that do not breed every year, and they stay in their "resident" locations. And, possibly, breeding takes place outside of the aggregations. But, who knows? There is so much we do not yet understand about this species (still having to study basics like how long they live).

When scientists try to communicate with us here on the board, I think we should try to appreciate and understand the information they are trying to provide. Legitimate criticism is certainly part of the process, but jumping on an out of context phrase, and then calling her post "ridiculous" or making it seem like she is giving misleading information, are not well taken and are one of the reasons it is so difficult to start an intelligent internet conversation about almost anything.

I agree with Guy on this....And I have heard some of the science discussions Sarah has had with the other researchers.... If memory serves, I believe MOST of the scientists figure around 90% of the spawning occurs at the major aggregation sites in Palm beach....that leaves Michael some deep water, far from shore site(s) off of the gulf coast of Florida, where we would expect a population that far away may choose to spawn instead of making the huge trip to Palm beach.... If there is such a population of Goliath off of the Florida Middle Grounds, or some other area, where Michael or other KNOW of aggregations forming ( while we are having aggregations forming on Palm Beach), then this information should be shared, and I would make sure we would try to get some video documentation next year, which could then EXPAND the science.

 

[guyharrisonphoto]

By the way I do not mean to degrade or insult the other posters on this thread, Dumbpster and AUE and I hope it did not come across like that. I appreciate the high level tone of the thread and especially Dumpster's time and effort to share the science with us. Just think that when an actual scientist comes to share, we get more from listening than from criticism.

 

[aue-mike]

1. I simply pointed out her statement was not entirely accurate, and I pointed out why.
2. If a fish is sexually mature, it is considered a breeder.
3. I am not disagreeing that sampling the spawning aggregations is efficient in terms of number of fish found in a relatively small area. No criticism of Sarah's or Chris's work.
4. Regarding spawning, most of this is all conjecture. Even though some individuals have made bold claims about breeding behavior (e.g., "captured on film"), etc., there is still a lot that is not known about the species, particularly throughout the vast majority of the species' range.
5. The claim that "90% of the spawning occurs at the major aggregation sites in Palm beach" is purely speculative and totally unrealistic given the wide range of the species. The nucleus of the species population in the continental U.S. is the 10,000 Islands area in SW Florida. To say that the spawning aggregations in Palm Beach, most of which were either fractured or non-existent 10+ years ago, is responsible for the rebuilding (via spawning and recruitment) of the population throughout the GOM, Florida Keys, and up through the Carolinas is so flawed I should not have to point out it's flawed.
Cheers,
Mike

Michael C. Barnette
Fishery Biologist
Protected Resources Division
National Marine Fisheries Service

 

[danvolker]

Uh Oh....I see a WWF Smackdown style Extravaganza brewing.... I will see if I can get TV quality announcer to play Master of Ceremonies

 

[dumpsterDiver]

By the way I do not mean to degrade or insult the other posters on this thread, Dumbpster and AUE and I hope it did not come across like that. I appreciate the high level tone of the thread and especially Dumpster's time and effort to share the science with us. Just think that when an actual scientist comes to share, we get more from listening than from criticism.

I think that when an actual scientist shares information, they would welcome a critical review of their statements.

I really doubt that she actually meant what she wrote about all the fish being off Palm Beach...it was probably just a quick Email... but the statement was pretty ridiculous.

---------- Post Merged at 05:07 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 05:04 PM ----------

Dumpster,

.....

I was very surprised to hear about the kill-off in Ft. Pierce. I had no idea. Do you know what happened? I do know that the cooling canal is a manatee gathering spot when it is cold, but what caused the fish kill? I guess I can google it . . .

this came up when I googled it...

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/jellyfish-swarm-shuts-down-st-lucie-nuclear-power-/nL2Hc/

 

[guyharrisonphoto]

Yeah, I googled it, too. I was really shocked to find that the power plant has pipes big enought to suck goliaths in to the holding canal and no way (or no effort) to rescue them. What a "ridiculous" system for FPL

That Hutchinson Island location was a fiasco from the very beginning, but I never heard of such an irresponsible system for getting the cooling water.

AUE-MIKE are the goliaths staging a comeback in the Gulf and 10000 Islands as well? You said that you found a spawning aggregation in the Gulf. If the population is rebounding there that would be great news. Personally I hope you are right and the spawing concentrations are not limited primarily to the Palm Beach area. It is certainly reasonable to think so, but do we know? The comeback is very visible in the Palm Beach area even without the aggregations, we see goliaths (usually more than one) on almost every reef dive now.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Yeah, I googled it, too. I was really shocked to find that the power plant has pipes big enought to suck goliaths in to the holding canal and no way (or no effort) to rescue them. What a "ridiculous" system for FPL

That Hutchinson Island location was a fiasco from the very beginning, but I never heard of such an irresponsible system for getting the cooling water.

AUE-MIKE are the goliaths staging a comeback in the Gulf and 10000 Islands as well? You said that you found a spawning aggregation in the Gulf. If the population is rebounding there that would be great news. Personally I hope you are right and the spawing concentrations are not limited primarily to the Palm Beach area. It is certainly reasonable to think so, but do we know? The comeback is very visible in the Palm Beach area even without the aggregations, we see goliaths (usually more than one) on almost every reef dive now.

The center of their repopulation is SW Florida around the 1000 islands area. That has been prety well documented, i think.

The FPL intakes are scary, I free dove near them not too long ago and they were sucking hard. Would be easy to get sucked into the intakes that are in the ocean. I will not be doing it again.

I knew a scuba diver who got sucked up and tumbled through over a thousand feet of intake pipe in utter darkness, being cut and shreaded by oysters and barnacles, before coming out on the other end. He said he was pretty sure he was going to die...

 

[aue-mike]

AUE-MIKE are the goliaths staging a comeback in the Gulf and 10000 Islands as well? You said that you found a spawning aggregation in the Gulf. If the population is rebounding there that would be great news. Personally I hope you are right and the spawing concentrations are not limited primarily to the Palm Beach area. It is certainly reasonable to think so, but do we know? The comeback is very visible in the Palm Beach area even without the aggregations, we see goliaths (usually more than one) on almost every reef dive now.

Yes. The population has been rebuilding pretty well over the past 10 years. Most researchers are aware of a well-documented spawning aggregation at a shipwreck in Southwest Florida; it's hardly news. We caught the aggregation in 2001 with about 120-140 specimens up in the water column off the wreck -- it was very impressive. The year before and the year after on the same weekend (Labor Day weekend) numbers of fish were only about 40, but it may have been the aggregation had not formed yet. The GG population in the eastern GOM is pretty robust, and most shipwrecks and artificial reefs have significant numbers of resident adult specimens; it's not uncommon to see 20-40+ fish on most wrecks with high-profile relief. Adults also can be found on ledges with relief or undercuts and under bridges, range markers, etc. The old phosphate dock at Boca Grande used to be a great shore dive where you could see 30-40+ GG. They are still there, but not in the same numbers as they removed the decking and portions of the dock.

Spawning aggregations typically form in the vicinity of geomorphological features that can benefit spawning success. If you review the literature you will see many aggregations form near reef breaks, cuts, etc., where current and other factors can help with transport and dispersion. In South Florida you have the Gulf Stream. In the GOM these features are not as pronounced or abundant, so aggregations may not be the main reproductive strategy of the species here. This is pure speculation though.

Here is a 2006 status report on the species I helped prepare that provides good information, including a historical perspective on abundance and distribution:
http://sero.nmfs.noaa.gov/pr/pdf/Final_Status_Report_on_the_Goliath_Grouper.pdf
It is important to note the species is not listed as threatened or endangered under the Endangered Species Act. The International Union for Conservation of Nature lists (from a 2006 assessment) GG as "critically endangered" for the whole range but does state that "in the southeastern U.S. they are not Critically Endangered."
More information on this was included in a 90-day finding in response to a petition to list GG as threatened or endangered under the ESA:
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2011-06-01/pdf/2011-13549.pdf

Suffice it to say the rebuilding of the GG population can be considered a success story. But all this talk about the species still being critically endangered, individuals vehemently opposed to consumptive research, and some of the advocacy hype, etc. is a little overboard.

Cheers,
Mike

---------- Post Merged at 10:11 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 10:06 AM ----------

Uh Oh....I see a WWF Smackdown style Extravaganza brewing.... I will see if I can get TV quality announcer to play Master of Ceremonies

Not at all Dan. Just a difference of opinion. Or it could be Sarah's e-mail did not address the larger issues and was strictly focused on what is going on over there off Palm Beach County. No biggie.

 

[guyharrisonphoto]

AUE MIKE I am very glad to hear from you that the Goliath comeback is ongoing throughout Florida. It also sounds like Maribi and I are missing some great diving over there in Gulf! I will look into wreck diving over threre and maybe we will plan a trip. If we do we might contact you from some pointers if you don't mind.

I am going to read those links you sent. We have become very attached to these giant fish and want to learn as much as we can.

I had a modest role in a conservation program for atlantic kingfish for the NMFS in the early 80s when commercial and sport fishermen tried to get a court to overturn a temporary ban intended to restore the atlantic stock populations. I represented the NMFS and we prevailed, and the kingfish rebounded in just a few years. I believ Craig O'Connor was the main researcher I worked with back then. Another success story, but much faster rebound than the Goliaths. In my whole career it is still the case that gives me the most satisfaction.

While I am not thrilled with consumptive research, we need to know about these fish and I certainly am willing to give the scientists the benefit of the doubt. I know that no researcher I ever spoke to wants to kill any fish unless it is absolutely necessary,and they are upset about accidental deaths as much as the rest of us.

While strong advocacy might not need in Florida from a purely population standpoint, I do support advocating against any harvest that would destroy the diving community's ability to interact at close range with the fish. That means no spearfishing, mainly, because the fish are accustomed close contact with people not being a threat. That could change in a hurry if divers started killing them. But, that is a personal/policy belief on my part.

Please, keep the information coming. I do think we are coming to a watershed moment regarding if (or when and under what conditions) harvesting might resume.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Some more information which was published in 2011, I believe..

http://www.bio.fsu.edu/coleman_lab/documents/Koenigetal_2011_GG_recover (BMS).pdf