First cave dives

[Dsix36]

To the OP:

Let me tell you a little story about a recent dive a fully trained cave diver did. He went into a sinkhole just to check it out to see if he was actually going to do a dive there. This is NOT exploration as it is a popular place. Knowing full well that he was breaking the first rule of cave diving he never went more than 5' from entrance but when he tried to ascend, he found he ran into the ceiling and no light was visible anywhere. At this point it is highly probable that if he were not cave trained that panic and death would have been the most probable outcome, BUT proper training managed to keep him alive so that he could tell his story to you in hopes that you might "see the light" too.

Please do not be one of those people that have to learn the hard way. A lot of concerned members are honestly trying to help you and others.

 

[Tassi Devil Diver]

Is this a sea cave (correct me if I am wrong)? If so the conditions in sea caves are often very different to those of freshwater systems, and can be dived safely by those without cave diving cert.

Where I come from (Tasmania, Australia) there many sea caves around the coast, most are strait tunnels that are carved into the shore cliff face some are short others can go in up to 1 or 2 hundred meters end in a dead end, some have dog legs that take you out of sight of light, some are long swim through, others are more complex, with passages that branch off in to various direction loop back around into the main cave etc (such as the Cathedral Caves at Eaglehawk Neck which is the best known and most complex sea cave system in my area), some are big wide and open others are smaller, not particularly deep maximum depth 20m but mostly 10-15. The general rule in my area is that to dive these caves you need to be a competent open water diver and have a redundant air supply, no one is required to have a cave diving cert. The biggest danger in these caves is surge from ocean swell, and being able to judge this or know when to turn around is important.

 

[txaggie08]

^ there are cars that are safe to enter in zero visibility after you've busted the windows out of at 20ft too. I'll still question your sanity, and tell you you shouldn't do it without training, the proper equipment, and practicing it.

What happens when his first stage free flows 3-400' in the cave, on a single, and loses his team mate? Or lord forbid a light in the process? If you can swim 400' out of a cave and surface when your tank effectively dumped itself.....you're a better driver than I'll ever be.

 

[Tassi Devil Diver]

^ In the end it is a personal judgment call, me I am comfortable diving the sea caves in my region (I don't have any cave diving cert, though over 20 years of sea cave diving experience) and have led many dives through them. If some is not comfortable with the dive that is fine, I would rather someone express their concerns and we can then discuss how to mitigate any concerns (redundant air, redundant torch etc) and if they were comfortable with that I would consider taking them through a larger more open area of the sea cave. If I had the opportunity to dive other sea caves in another region I would seek local knowledge regarding diving practices in that area.

 

[leadduck]

How about this concern: you guide an inexperienced customer first time into a cave and he stirs up silt and panics. Or there's some other "minor" inconvenience such as getting lost for a short time, swimming into a dead-end, and he panics. I think this is more likely than most gear failures and would by my main concern.
See for example Four die after panic set in during scuba dive at popular Italian resort

 

[Tassi Devil Diver]

^ Silt is not an issue in the sea caves I dive in my region, the cave floor ranges from solid rock through to course sand, mostly coble and gravel certainly no fine silt or mud so I consider that a most unlikely scenario for the sea caves I dive in my region. The greatest concern I have with diving sea caves in my region is surge caused by ocean swells, something that was not covered in any cave course last time I looked.

 

[Doby45]

something that was not covered in any cave course last time I looked.

How would you know, you're not cave certified. There is a LOT of stuff covered in cave courses that is "extra instructor experience".

 

[beester]

^ In the end it is a personal judgment call, me I am comfortable diving the sea caves in my region (I don't have any cave diving cert, though over 20 years of sea cave diving experience) and have led many dives through them. If some is not comfortable with the dive that is fine, I would rather someone express their concerns and we can then discuss how to mitigate any concerns (redundant air, redundant torch etc) and if they were comfortable with that I would consider taking them through a larger more open area of the sea cave. If I had the opportunity to dive other sea caves in another region I would seek local knowledge regarding diving practices in that area.

Heya Tassi, I am a bit jealous... your description of your local diving really is getting me very interested to go and experience the underwater world in Tasmania... but halas such a long distance!

IMO it's very dangerous in generalizing, specifically when it comes to overhead environments. Yes I'm sure you know the sea-caves in Tasmania very well, and yes some might barely be overhead in the first place or more cavern than cave. I've dived some sea caves in different places, and yes some mimic your description while others are totally different beasts (check out for example a GUE project in sardinia: Project Baseline Sardinia: Scientific Cave Research 2018 ... these are caves going on a good while...with pinches... )

Next it's also not so difficult to do get into trouble in even benign overhead environments... (you should search on this board in the accidents and incidents... there are a couple of posts of deads in Italian and Greek seacaverns/caves, of divers accompanied by local instructors/ diveguides).

So yes while I respect your experience in your own environment, I don't accept your advice to an already too "gun ho" diver doing a trust me dive. Not for his sake, because in my experience, you can't change the mind of someone who is clearly the victim of the dunning-kruger effect (Training Fundamentals: The Dunning-Kruger Diver) ... But I'm posting this, because I'm aware that other lesser experienced divers may read this and fall victim to your advice... because "hey it's only a sea-cave".

 

[beester]

Ken, I will have a read of the download as soon as I have time. I would like to respond to a few of the points made in other posts. No one talked me into doing this dive, I did it after considerable thought over several months and after 4 previous dives with this outfit. I am well aware of the additional hazards of diving away from natural light and with no direct route to the surface. I am also aware that it usually takes more than a single failure, or even 2 or 3 failures to result in a disaster. I considered the risks and decided they were acceptable. Last Sunday my local club had an excellent dive at Wastwater, which they dive frequently and I suggest you do a google search for "wastwater divers deaths since 2000". The cave dive I did in Greece is less hazardous than my local lakes. I have an invite to dive the Farne Islands area which I will take up sometime (good for seals) but in the last 2 years at least 2 divers have died in that area. All diving carries risks. In the Greek cave I was far more alert that I am on shallow open water dives, had there been the slightest hint of anything starting to go wrong the dive would have been turned.
A few weeks ago the son of a friend (who I used to race motocross with) opened a practice track so I went to have a look. At the track I met up with a friend who I had not seen for over 25 years, he used to race mx also. I mentioned I still had my CR500 and was thinking of giving it a run round, he replied he could not ride a motorcycle now. I had heard he had been badly hurt in a car accident so I asked him what had happened. He had been returning home from holiday driving his car with his family in when he fell asleep, went up the motorway embankment and slid sideways into a concrete column supporting a bridge.
Madeira is my favorite diving destination (another 10 days there this autumn) but look at Live life on the edge with a trip to Madeira, Cristiano Ronaldo country. Also do a search for "tree fall kills 13 on madeira" or "madeira bus crass kills 29 germans" or look up plane landings at madeira on you tube. (at least we wont be flying on a Boeing max 8).
I would far rather live a life worth living and die doing it than never to have done anything interesting.
Cheers

Heya 60plus... you can't know this, but some of the people that have reacted to your post, have done "interesting dives", probably beyond your wildest imagination. They haven't done so by cutting corners or taking unnecessary risks, counting on fate and faith.

In fact most of the cutting edge world class level divers/climbers/etc that I've met are exactly the opposite of your personality... and yes they've lived interesting lives. They are calm, very calculated, very thoughtful people, who like a rush like everybody else but on the right occasion. They are very aware of what they know and what they don't know, in fact in some ways they even underestimate their skills... because that's the safe way towards progression.

Be safe, and maybe read up on dunning kruger, or normalisation of deviance.

 

[sea_ledford]

Having dove a fair number of caverns in Hawaii and taken 1000's of recreational-only trained divers through them, I have a wider berth of acceptance for this type of stuff than most of the Florida cave divers. I've since been cave trained and see their point, but still don't agree with it in some cavern/swim through situations.

However, if you are going someplace that has a line installed, or needs a line for safety purposes, all divers should have overhead training. Looking at that video, that is a cave cave. We had a couple in Hawaii that were like that, and no way would I have taken divers in.