Following standards?

[Walter]

Don't be a tease - what did you find?

I'm not teasing you, Stephen. You know as well as I that PADI defines swimming to include snorkeling.

 

[grazie42]

This whole thread is starting to turn into a text-interpretation class...

What I´ve gotten from this thread so far is:
1. Some people think standards (particularly PADI apparently) are sub-par and so either don´t teach, teach for one with explicit standards that they subscribe to or teach for an agency that allows "over-teaching". Or just stay with that agency and then follow or violate standards "as they see fit" (with or without some kind of explicit rationale)

2. There are people who think standards are fine. Certification is a "learners permit" and you can´t really teach or be expected to be taught what you need to be taught in a 3/5/22-day class. "Experience is the true teacher".

3. There are those who like their agency (or don´t actively dislike it). They have decided to interpret standards from the point of view that the "authors" of standards meant them to be interpreted in the way that "produces the best possible divers".

None of these 3 categories will "see" the same thing when they read the same standards but if they want to they can propably frame questions to a certifying agency in a way that leaves them with an answer that, at least to them, proves their interpretation of standards...

So now I just have to decide if I want to be a 1,2 or 3....

ymmv

 

[lucybuykx]

The bottom line is that, as an instructor, your primary duty and responsibility is to your student, not the agency that supplies you with instructional materials.

Good call. As long as you are issuing your own certification rating.

If you are offering a standard recognised course from a recognised agency then it is your responsibility to give that course as described by the agency. Otherwise you are misselling. Don't know about the US but in UK thats breaking the law.

 

[Thalassamania]

Good call. As long as you are issuing your own certification rating.

An instructor is always issuing his or her own certification rating. THE INSTRUCTOR is certifying that the student has met certain suite of performance criteria established by an organization. It is the Instructor who certifies not the agency.

If you are offering a standard recognised course from a recognised agency then it is your responsibility to give that course as described by the agency. Otherwise you are misselling. Don't know about the US but in UK thats breaking the law.

Agencies do not promulgate a “standard recognized course” rather they set a minimum standard that must be met by the student prior to certification by the instructor. Agencies do not market a product that is delivered by the instructor, they do not advertise a course description or any such, that’s left up to the instructor. There is no question of misselling here except when the minimum standards are not met or exceeded.

 

[lucybuykx]

If a non-diver comes along to a dive instructor and asks to learn to dive then said instructor can teach them any way they best choose.

If a non-diver comes along and asks for the PADI Open Water cert card then the instructor must present the course as described by the agency. It is a standard recognised course - there are options in presentation - but all the modules must be presented and in the correct order with the correct materials. Whats not standard about that?

 

[ScubaMilo]

If a non-diver comes along to a dive instructor and asks to learn to dive then said instructor can teach them any way they best choose.

This is true, but in the end this person being taught would not be recognized by any agency as a certified diver.
You must meet the minimum requirement set by whichever agency to be certified.
The instructor is basiclly going to the agency of record stating this person meets the minimum requirement for certification.

Just my 2 cents
Milo

 

[Thalassamania]

… your repeated posts that sound like you want everyone else to defer to your vast experience, I won't do that.

I don’t really care what you personally do, why should I? But the sarcasm is uncalled for. The fact of the matter is that I do have vastly more experience than you do and you know what they say, those who refuse to learn from the past are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past … knock yourself out.

Yes, I have seen situations in which a Instructor was way outside of standards in dangerous ways and despite repeated "reporting" was back, weekend after weekend repeating the same mistake.

My agreement with my association specifies what I am required to do in certain situations, and so I'll do that. I'm one of those sorts who believes that if you don't vote, you can't complain. So when I don't agree, changing things from the inside seems like a good approach to at least try.

Your ingenuousness is delightful, but my cynicism is much more realistic.

As for not having an agency, maybe I'll ask "which organization issues the certifications for the majority of your students?"

And why is that relevant? The standards that I teach to are those of the American Academy of Underwater Sciences which exceed all the recreational agencies'.

I don't want to come right out and say you sound pompous, but from what I can see, it might be that the only instructor here you feel is worthy of any respect is you.

If you’d read my other posts you’d find reams of Instructors whom I have great respect for and from whom I’ve learned and some from whom I continue to learn (some have passed on). Folks like Jim Stewart, Lloyd Austin, Lee Somers, Bob Titchnell, Dick Rutkowski, Walt Hendrick Sr., Bill High, Dan Orr, Tom Mount, Paul Heinmiller, Harris Taylor, Jeff Bozanic, Paker Turner, Greg Stanton, Jim Griffin, Billy Dean, John McAniff, Ron Edmenson, Bret Gilliam, Glen Egstrom, John Duffy, Al Pierce, Ron and Sue Bangasser, Jim Corry, Hank Viex, to name a few.

Or maybe a small handful of others who have decided to not teach with any agency.

You are ignorant of the history of diving and the people who made it happen. Most of the foundation of modern diving traces back to Scripps Intuition of Oceanography in 1952. Those of us who came up thorough the university systems were (are) responsible solely to our instructions’ officers (Presidents, Provosts, Directors, whatever) though our campus Diving Control Boards. So in that sense we do issue our “own” certifications and there is no need for an “agency” involvement. So in that sense a Thalassamania certification card exists (as do at least 14 similar institutional certifications from amongst those named above).

You claiming to reject the concept of "your agency" puts you in a sweet spot, doesn't it? You get to come here and complain about agency related issues without ever being held accountable, nor having any responsibility to help things improve.

I’ve spent more years helping the recreational agencies, writing for them, sitting on committees, etc. then you’ve been diving. Many more. I did that against the advice of my colleagues because like you I thought that I could help out and make a difference. But it just ain’t so. Because I lacked the critical insight, greed overcomes all. So now I’m here to tell you what’s wrong, the history of how it came to pass, and the babies that were thrown out with the bathwater. Don’t listen, don’t stand on my shoulders, repeat the mistakes and be taken advantage of. I’d like to help you avoid that, but in the final analysis its up to you.

If a non-diver comes along to a dive instructor and asks to learn to dive then said instructor can teach them any way they best choose.

Correct, the instructor must give the student an overview of the course and its requirements and stick to that.

If a non-diver comes along and asks for the PADI Open Water cert card then the instructor must present the course as described by the agency. It is a standard recognised course - there are options in presentation - but all the modules must be presented and in the correct order with the correct materials. Whats not standard about that?

You’re on a slippery slope, what’s the difference between moving an item from one place in a module to another place in the same module or to a proceeding or trailing module? Or adding a new skill or activity? Or having an 18 hour, 20, hour, 24, hour or 40 hour or 42 hour course? A standard course recognized by whom? PADI? Who gives a damn? Who died and made them god? They have no more legal standing as experts than I do.

 

[Karibelle]

I don’t really care what you personally do, why should I? But the sarcasm is uncalled for.

My apologies if my remarks were interpreted as sarcastic; they were not meant to be.

You are ignorant of the history of diving and the people who made it happen.

You're right. This illuminates for me the fact that you and I are simply not talking about the same animal. You're discussing one thing, I'm discussing another.

I’ve spent more years helping the recreational agencies, writing for them, sitting on committees, etc. then you’ve been diving. Many more.

I dare say, longer than I've been breathing.

I did that against the advice of my colleagues because like you I thought that I could help out and make a difference. But it just ain’t so.

I know I'm idealistic, but that's just sad.

Don’t listen, don’t stand on my shoulders, repeat the mistakes and be taken advantage of. I’d like to help you avoid that, but in the final analysis its up to you.

Maybe if you provided more information, rather than decrees, that would help me buy in. Of course, as you said, why should you care what I think. You probably shouldn't. If, however, you really are trying to help me, then help me. I am listening to the discussion, but I shut down when the lecture starts.


kari

 

[Thalassamania]

Maybe if you provided more information, rather than decrees, that would help me buy in. Of course, as you said, why should you care what I think. You probably shouldn't. If, however, you really are trying to help me, then help me. I am listening to the discussion, but I shut down when the lecture starts.

If you'll try to listen, I'll try to comply.

 

[Karibelle]

If you'll try to listen, I'll try to comply.

Works for me. Thank you.

kari