Free diving depth as part of solo dive certification?

[handben]

I appreciate all of the opinions expressed on this topic. I must say that I see those 2 skills (free diving ability versus self sufficiency on scuba) as totally different. I feel quite comfortable underwater, in fact this is when I am often most relaxed. But I've never had any desire to pursue free diving. The more I think about it, the less I like trying to demonstrate this skill. It will be done in a quarry with some wicked thermoclines. I will need my wetsuit with hood and gloves and boots as it drops as low as 40F at depth; consequently I'll need a good bit of lead to get under. I'm a little worried about wetsuit compression and subsequent decreased buoyancy the deeper I go. I'd rather not be struggling to get back up from the bottom. Perhaps he will allow me to improvise some sort of "sled" say 25 pounds of lead that I can zoom down 65 feet, dump and zip back up. Again, I don't know what that would prove about my diving ability and seems somewhat risky.

 

[Dive-aholic]

That is why it seemed strange to me as well. My thoughts are that I will stay within the limits of what I can reasonably expect my bail-out bottle to get me out of (essentially recreational limits). I don't know how deep I can free dive as I've never really wanted to do this. I know I can hit the bottom of the deepend of any pool I've been in; but in the ocean or lake if I wanted to be deeper, I've always donned my scuba gear. I suppose I'll make it to 20 or so feet perhaps deeper. If my certification is good only for 40-60 feet, this is rather useless as most of my diving has been/will be deeper than that. We often rant against divers who are diving beyond their training - which for the most part is valid in my opinion. However I am taking this course to see what I don't know (and to get a piece of plastic should it come in handy in the future with certain operators). But given the limitations of the certification, I suppose when I do solo dive it will be beyond my certification level as I certainly will be deeper than twice what I can free dive. I will have a redundant air supply whenever I solo dive regardless of the depth.

There is no depth limitation requirement for the SDI Solo course. I have issued a SDI Solo certifications and never put a depth limit on them. A majority of my solo dives are in caves. I have been alone 5000' back in a cave. I know I can't breath hold out of there!

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

I appreciate all of the opinions expressed on this topic. I must say that I see those 2 skills (free diving ability versus self sufficiency on scuba) as totally different. I feel quite comfortable underwater, in fact this is when I am often most relaxed. But I've never had any desire to pursue free diving. The more I think about it, the less I like trying to demonstrate this skill. It will be done in a quarry with some wicked thermoclines. I will need my wetsuit with hood and gloves and boots as it drops as low as 40F at depth; consequently I'll need a good bit of lead to get under. I'm a little worried about wetsuit compression and subsequent decreased buoyancy the deeper I go. I'd rather not be struggling to get back up from the bottom. Perhaps he will allow me to improvise some sort of "sled" say 25 pounds of lead that I can zoom down 65 feet, dump and zip back up. Again, I don't know what that would prove about my diving ability and seems somewhat risky.

Do not overweight yourself. I'm assuming you are using a thick wetsuit (5 or 7mm?) for those temps. You need to do some "practice runs" to get your weighting correct, but I would not be shooting for "neutral" at the surface!

You'll want to be positive at the surface, and neutral "at depth", so you'll need to "duck" dive and kick part way down, and as your suit compresses you can kick less, then eventually just glide down; then on the ascent you'll kick some, and as you pass midway or so you'll be able to just glide up.

Be careful with weighting if you are freediving in a thick wetsuit.

Best wishes.

 

[Nemrod]

I appreciate all of the opinions expressed on this topic. I must say that I see those 2 skills (free diving ability versus self sufficiency on scuba) as totally different.

I don't.

You are entitled to your opinion but opinions don't gain much ground when the s--- hits the fan, so I hope you are right and take account of your capabilities and plan and equip yourself accordingly.

Nobody said anything about sleds.

Good luck.

N

 

[cmburch]

A good starting point for freedive weighting is about 4lbs less than used for SCUBA. Overweighting is dangerous.

It would be safe to be neutrally bouyant at about 30'. This means that above 30' you will rise making it easier to surface.

A diving swimming pool is about 16'. Just inverting and a couple kicks you will hit 20'.

 

[Couv]

I think Nemrod has made some excellent points. I don't know if I agree with the OP's instructor's requirements, but that's not the point. Most of the diving skills we learn are to give us confidence. It doesn't matter if it's mask clearing, gear doff and don, regulator recovery, and yes free diving. Every skill we learn and practice is about preventing panic. How many of us here don't think that learning to master the use a snorkel and mask first wasn't a much better approach than the opposite philosophy of starting with scuba and working backward? How many of you would say the requirement to be able to swim a fair distance underwater and depth aren't important skills necessary before taking a student into open water? Back in the day we called it Watermanship. It's all about confidence-not just to make a CESA, but you need to KNOW you can go without gas for X amount of time. If you don't have to confidence in yourself to know that, you'd better to skip diving altogether and take up golf.

couv

 

[handben]

@Nemrod. Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I see from your post (and profile) that you are quite comfortable with your underwater skills and have a lot of experience. As you know (and I know having been diving 27 years) equipment is more sophisticated and the sport in general is safer now than in the early days of scuba. In my opinion, relying on antiquated diving techniques and technology is akin to disabling your antilock brakes, your air bags and removing your seatbelts from your car because this is how cars were back in the day. Certainly one can drive without these safety features a whole lifetime and never suffer adverse events. However most would agree that would be riskier than driving with the safety equipment.

As a physician with an interest in diving medicine, I can tell you unequivocally diving to a depth of 100 to 120 and using the surface as your redundant air supply is much riskier than carrying along a redundant air supply. Hopefully you will never face that situation. While YOU might make it to the surface from that depth and avoid drowning, your risk of decompression sickness and arterial air embolism are going to be much much higher than a slow controlled ascent on scuba. Boyle's law applies to all divers regardless of their confidence or past experience. I favor a more conservative risk adverse approach for myself than you have chosen. But as you say: "opinions don't gain much ground when the s--- hits the fan".

 

[DaleC]

I approach diving from two different angles depending on depth.

If I am diving < 50/60' I usually don't take a redundant air source and will experiment with all sorts of equipment configurations. Vintage, eclectic, no BC, sidemount, inverted etc... I am confident that I will be able to ESA from that depth.

After about 60' I approach my dives from a technically oriented POV, as though it were a deco dive. I take redundancy in gas, mask, liftbag, cutting tools and an upline. I completely forget that the surface is an option and plan to solve all problems at depth. I do this because:

a.) I dive in cold dark water.
b.) I typically dive doubles at those depths.
c.) I anticipate a problem at the bottom of a breath and I don't know if I could swim my rig up at that point.

This mentality works well for me. I understand and agree that general confidence via watermanship should be a big part of diving but I don't think soloing should be limited to 2X my freedive depth.

Environment also plays a big part in equipment and operating depth. Doing a CESA in tropical conditions with a single and shorty 3mm wetsuit is a lot different than doing one in a double 7mm wetsuit and doubles with 30-40lb's of lead.

The real limiting factor for me at present is narcosis and I self limit myself solo to 100' for this reason. I will dip below that depth on occasion but when I do the clock is running, so to speak, and I don't linger there unneccisarily. I plan to move into trimix soon to extend that range into the 100-150' range solo.

With the proper equipment and experience/training I think this should be the limiting factor (IMO). The depth that one can operate at and return from, intelligently.

 

[Darnold9999]

That is really strange.

Why not an Al30, or an AL63, or simply an AL80?

It makes me question the qualifications of the instructor....

I could certainly understand if he said "For dive profile 'X', you need to have at least an Al40 to give adaquate redundancy, and since we will be doing a couple dives that are almost that deep in this class, you'll need the Al40...";

But an Al19 is "enough" as a bailout bottle for most recreational-depth dives...

Oh well... after over 30 years of solo, I'm unlikely to take a class to get a silly card, but do scratch my head when I hear this kind of stuff.

Best wishes.

You are right that would be really strange - AL40 was the minimum. Not a requirement to carry just that one bottle. Just a requirement to carry at least that size. Still found another instructor.

I am somewhere in the middle of diving 2 x depth with no redundant air and carrying enough redundant air to get me to the surface with a full safety stop. Typically narcosis is my depth limit not the inability to get to the surface - beyond 100 feet I can get pretty stupid so rarely do I go deeper than that. I have absolute confidence that I could make it to the surface from 100 feet - even in a dry suit with lots of lead, BUT I would be going faster than would be prudent for the last 20 feet or so as panic approached and that is just more risk than I am prepared to take. So I carry a bottle on all dives - buddy, solo, shallow, deep. The only difference is that I carry a 13cf in local cold water dives and if I travel I carry a 6cf because it weighs significantly less. Not enough to do a full safety stop from 100 feet but enough to do a slow comfortable ascent from 100' if I had to. Not enough to solve any issues at depth - if you want that you need more air than 13cf.

That is my reasoning - yours will be different.

 

[DevonDiver]

There's a freediving cshool in Thailand that can get pretty much anyone down to 30m breath-hold within a week....

So... just do that course in conjunction with the solo diver course and you're certified solo to 60m?