Frustration moving into/towards tech

[jlcnuke]

I get that your buddy is in a bit of a tight spot, having removed that much muscle.
But the fact that you would rather go on the offensive about how GUE (and similar agencies) and their config is wrong and not a good fit for your mate rather than come to the very simple conclusion that you could just help your buddy get into his harness (I guess he didn't lose 90% of his movement range in the arm?).
I can get into my harness on my own and so can the people I dive with, but it is easier if you help each other (which is really what GUE is about, you're a team and you all help each other).
While it seems like you have already made up your mind about GUE, I still feel like you haven't given it a single look beyond the fact that your buddy can't use a certain type of harness.
Their Fundies is an extremely good class (and a great preparation for tech), doesn't matter what your goal with diving it, everyone can benefit from it.
My classmate for Fundies rented a BPW (single tank) setup that was equipped with Halcyons cinch system (which someone like your buddy would find very helpful).
You could at least try and talk to an instructor about the possibilities of that for a Fundies (which IMO is the best intro to tech class on the market).
Don't write them off the board just yet, there is no obligation to drink the kool aid and get a diehard subscription to the DIR system just because you take a Fundies.

Another question, that doesn't have anything to do with what organisation you prefer...
If your buddy has had that much muscle removed, and has that much trouble getting into a DIR harness, does he still have the mobility and strength needed in his arm to execute a valve drill with back mounted doubles?
Because I'm having a hard time thinking of any tech instructor who would pass a student in a tech class if they couldn't pull that skill off.

My buddy is, quite frankly, hardly a blip on the screen of why I won't work with GUE. Their curriculum is setup absolutely terribly (imo, as a person that designs training curriculum for clients professionally and have been teaching or developing training in some professional capacity off and on for more than 20 years). Their rigidity is theirs to have, but not something I'm interested in dealing with. Their belief that "our way is right and anyone else is wrong" is well known and while some may argue that no such thing exists, the agency literally still prohibits smokers because, well who knows or cares why but it's certainly not because they've done a professional medical evaluation to determine that no smoker on the planet is medically fit to dive, nah, it's just "their policy". They're welcome to have policies like that, but it's surely indicative of what kind of an agency it is. I don't smoke (haven't in years) so that requirement doesn't stop me, but the attitude it represents (along with sooo many other things about the agency) tell me it's not an agency that I want to have anything to do with, much less support with my money.

p.s. when you say "fundies is an extremely good class" the only possible way I can interpret that without laughing is that you mean "fundies lets people become better divers", because no "extremely good class" has as many possible outcomes as that class if it's designed even marginally well. If I tried to design a class anything similar to the cluster that is GUE's fundamentals course I'd not only be laughed at by my clients, I'd be fired the same day.

So no, it isn't my buddies disability that keeps me away from GUE, that's merely one example of one thing regarding the agency and their published standards and information among a much larger and more relevant list of things I fundamentally don't like about GUE.

TLDR: no, I don't like GUE and no it isn't because I've not looked into them at all, and I'm still not seeing any reason to reconsider my stance on the organization itself.

 

[Manatee Diver]

I mentioned this on page 2, but it turned into a fundies discussion, but why don't you and your buddy spend a day or two with a tech instructor, like Chris, and you go over the basics of doubles diving, get comfortable, and refine your propulsion? Then you can spend a few dives getting comfortable before doing ITT, AN/DP, Intro/App Cave et al.

 

[BrianPH14]

because no "extremely good class" has as many possible outcomes as that class if it's designed even marginally well. If I tried to design a class anything similar to the cluster that is GUE's fundamentals course I'd not only be laughed at by my clients, I'd be fired the same day.

Can you elaborate further on that part? I'm honestly unfamiliar with the outcomes of GUE courses.

 

[seeker242]

Can you elaborate further on that part? I'm honestly unfamiliar with the outcomes of GUE courses.

That description is just nonsensical ranting. You either pass, get a provisional, or just fail. A provisional means your skills are almost good enough to pass but not quite yet and you need some more time to practice, so they give you more time to practice. Some people just require more practice to get it than others and no matter how good the instructor is, or how the course is designed, nothing is going to change that fact.

 

[rddvet]

I’m saying that you’ve determined the outcome already.

You can’t even entertain the idea that maybe a GUE instructor can help your friend adjust his harness so that he doesn’t need a quick release. You’ve made up your mind. It’s done. You know the result - it’s impossible.

So there’s no sense in continuing.

Agree with that one. Usually people's GUE hatred is based on hearsay. I'd say 95% of the people I know that talk crap about GUE have never even been around a GUE diver or overheard a GUE course. When I first moved to tech 8 or so years ago I was told DIR is smart, but GUE were a bunch of cult following kooks. After years of diving with people with fundies cards, GUE divers, and overhearing countless GUE classes in cave country I've found the kooks are usually the ones hardcore against GUE (or couldn't pass fundies and are bitter).

 

[Azraelien]

Spot on about the muddy path- I had a long discussion with a class team mate today and we both realised that we are relatively uncertain, 6 months into training, of exactly which courses from a list of ones we've signed up for we are taking, which agency will certify, and so on- he originally took 'Doubles cert, followed by intro to tech, with an interest in deep wreck and or cave'and I asked for similar, but in sidemount - though since then we have done configuration work (valve drills, setup etc, a few deep dives (possibly enabling both of us to extend Rec limits to 40m?) started Cave style line work and drills (we said we'd like to go a little in that direction) and have been offered trimix dives - when we inquired about actual cards, we were just told to 'pick what agency you' d like..as you wish' from a list of about 7 or so... Overall review? 10/10. Love the instructor, and am confident that we are being taught over and above the requirements for any of the cards we eventually acquire.

 

[tbone1004]

, the agency literally still prohibits smokers because, well who knows or cares why but it's certainly not because they've done a professional medical evaluation to determine that no smoker on the planet is medically fit to dive, nah, it's just "their policy".

remember the GUE is based on exploration level project diving. Everything else is designed to feed into their elite divers doing BIG dives. It is fundamentally a recreational agency and as such they have to be exclusive to get the best of the best in their eyes to conduct the big project dives.
Smokers have a highly elevated CO level in their blood compared to nonsmokers *around 5x IIRC but it's off the top of my head so don't quote me*. CO in the blood affects the bodies ability to transfer O2 and CO2 effectively, but it is also highly narcotic. This combination can cause serious issues with decompression and narcosis on the big dives as all of the models are based on non-smokers.
The inherently higher CO2 levels in the body also affects the breathing response which is triggered based off of ppCO2 and a smokers response is going to be heavily altered based on the high levels of CO2 that the body is used to.
This is all ignoring the tissue damage in the lungs that can cause gas transfer issues with regards to inert gases and decompression efficiency.

All of that is based on medical research. Much of it is obviously extrapolated as no one will fund any studies about smokers and decompression illness or narcosis, but it is all quite logical.

May seem pedantic to camp out on that one point in this gargantuan thread, but wanted to point out that it isn't nearly as random as it may seem.

 

[Jack Hammer]

My buddy is, quite frankly, hardly a blip on the screen of why I won't work with GUE. Their curriculum is setup absolutely terribly (imo, as a person that designs training curriculum for clients professionally and have been teaching or developing training in some professional capacity off and on for more than 20 years). Their rigidity is theirs to have, but not something I'm interested in dealing with. Their belief that "our way is right and anyone else is wrong" is well known and while some may argue that no such thing exists, the agency literally still prohibits smokers because, well who knows or cares why but it's certainly not because they've done a professional medical evaluation to determine that no smoker on the planet is medically fit to dive, nah, it's just "their policy". They're welcome to have policies like that, but it's surely indicative of what kind of an agency it is. I don't smoke (haven't in years) so that requirement doesn't stop me, but the attitude it represents (along with sooo many other things about the agency) tell me it's not an agency that I want to have anything to do with, much less support with my money.

p.s. when you say "fundies is an extremely good class" the only possible way I can interpret that without laughing is that you mean "fundies lets people become better divers", because no "extremely good class" has as many possible outcomes as that class if it's designed even marginally well. If I tried to design a class anything similar to the cluster that is GUE's fundamentals course I'd not only be laughed at by my clients, I'd be fired the same day.

So no, it isn't my buddies disability that keeps me away from GUE, that's merely one example of one thing regarding the agency and their published standards and information among a much larger and more relevant list of things I fundamentally don't like about GUE.

TLDR: no, I don't like GUE and no it isn't because I've not looked into them at all, and I'm still not seeing any reason to reconsider my stance on the organization itself.

This has nothing to do with GUE, please don't infer otherwise. Looking for a course that is designed to easily pass is a very poor method of getting into technical diving and, quite frankly, extremely dangerous. Tec isn't Rec and a certain level of skills are required to safely do it. A properly designed technical diving course, from any reputable agency or instructor, should have some level of students who do not pass.

 

[PfcAJ]

The cup overfloweth.

 

[rjack321]

The cup overfloweth.

It's been so long since we had one of these threads

https://images.app.goo.gl/TUNzJpucspuHcFaf8