Full Face mask Cave diving.

[kensuf]

BTW, the second incident is a bit trickier. I've been that diver sitting in 250' of water while my buddy was exploring past a restriction. We had agreed that he would only be there for 5 minutes, but it was more like 15 by the time he returned. I chose to wait rather than follow (even though I was racking up ridiculous deco), but I knew my buddy, knew his skill level, and had faith he would be back so stuck to my end of the plan.

 

[boulderjohn]

I think you're not listening to what we're telling you, and maybe that's our fault.

And you have never heard what I am saying, and I will accept fault in that.

The first and third incident you discussed have little to do with lack of tools or technology for communication and are simply failures to use the communication tools and skills they should have already developed.
...

The first and third incident should have been solved by touch contact communication. Even if you ascribe to the use of "bump and go," the first incident (and probably third) was a failure because you are supposed to re-connect every few feet and once you hit clear water re-connect again. And if you believe in continuous touch contact instead of bump and go, then the first and third incident were clearly failures in communication.

In the first and third situation, the two buddies were suddenly separated by a siltout and could not locate each other. It is difficult to reconnect or maintain continuous contact when you were not connected in the first place.

 

[boulderjohn]

BTW, the second incident is a bit trickier. I've been that diver sitting in 250' of water while my buddy was exploring past a restriction. We had agreed that he would only be there for 5 minutes, but it was more like 15 by the time he returned. I chose to wait rather than follow (even though I was racking up ridiculous deco), but I knew my buddy, knew his skill level, and had faith he would be back so stuck to my end of the plan.

But you don't think the ability to communicate would have helped? In that situation, it worked out. What if he had really needed your help instead?

 

[Jack Hammer]

Misunderstandings aside (that's directed at all of us)...

@boulderjohn - John, what is your proposed solution to the problem you see?

☺ Jeff

 

[kensuf]

It is difficult to reconnect or maintain continuous contact when you were not connected in the first place.

I think this may be the crux of our disagreement. My experience has been that it is not difficult to reconnect in a silt-out. When you have one way in and one way out, and a guideline to follow, it should be relatively easy to reconnect with your partner.

The procedure was taught to me by Lloyd Bailey when I took cavern in 1994. I teach my students the same procedure. Every cave instructor I've ever worked with teaches the same basic procedure.

 

[tbone1004]

what Ken et al are saying is that while the FFM might have aided those specific scenarios, if the divers were actually following the basic rules of cave diving they wouldn't have been in that situation in the first place. The restriction one is a function of the support diver not following the dive plan, if you're that deep, in that much of a restriction, then during your predive you have to go over what to do if he exceeds his time limit. Improper predive planning led to a fatality, FFM may have helped, but there is no guarantee that due to the restriction the communication would have come through clearly anyway.

In the case of the siltout, you leave a cookie or wet notes, or buddy bottle or something, and stay until you have exhausted your reserve. Again, piss poor planning in part of the predive is at fault. Insufficient gas reserves, planning for the best and hoping for the best, bad buddy communication, etc etc caused that fatality. Could a FFM have prevented it? Maybe, but in both scenarios it is an equipment solution to a skills problem. Skills in both of these cases being inadequate predive planning, one on communication, the other on equipment.

 

[boulderjohn]

Misunderstandings aside (that's directed at all of us)...

@boulderjohn - John, what is your proposed solution to the problem you see?

☺ Jeff

I don't specifically have one. I have said simply that if there was an effective way to communicate with a buddy over short distances when separated for whatever reason, then it could be beneficial under certain circumstances. I would be happy to see such a system created. That is all I said.

I didn't mention it, but I think it would be helpful in a lost buddy scenario. (I get the sense that some of the people here must not teach the lost buddy scenario--"If you had done everything right, you wouldn't have a lost buddy, so you deserve to die!")

I never advocated full face masks. I have never used one, and I have no yen to do so.

I never said mistakes weren't made in the first scenario I posted--I know damn well there were. I participated in writing the report of that dive for NSS. I also participated in writing the report for the third scenario, and no one has pointed out the errors in that case. I am about to write the report for the second incident. I know what happened in all three cases.

It seems like some people here would feel their lives would absolutely be ruined if they were able to communicate with a buddy who is not in sight.

 

[kensuf]

I didn't mention it, but I think it would be helpful in a lost buddy scenario. (I get the sense that some of the people here must not teach the lost buddy scenario--"If you had done everything right, you wouldn't have a lost buddy, so you deserve to die!")

Umm, what gives you that idea?

Part of the lost buddy scenario should involve looking for your lost buddy where you last saw him, using some amount of that reserve third of gas to do so. If your lost buddy was further in the cave than you, and you had reserve gas to use, why would you exit? And if you're on the line due to a silt-out, in a minor restriction, and your buddy is further in the cave when the silt-out happened, where do you think your buddy is?

The last time I checked, people haven't discovered teleportation portals that will allow you to get past someone in a minor restriction.

I never advocated full face masks. I have never used one, and I have no yen to do so.

But you are advocating for a technological solution to a skills problem. Relying on a technological solution to solve a problem that the average cavern diver should be able to solve is sloppy thinking, the same mindset leads to the OMS remote valve winder and the automatic buoyancy control system someone tried to launch a kickstarter campaign for.

That mindset accepts mediocrity in basic skills because of it's belief that technology will solve the problem. But what happens when that super duper communications system fails? Will your basic skills rise to the occasion or will they fail?

It seems like some people here would feel their lives would absolutely be ruined if they were able to communicate with a buddy who is not in sight.

Oh wow. You're probably about one or two more posts away from Godwin's law and calling us Nazi's.

 

[Doby45]

 

[kelemvor]

What about accidents like Dave Shaw's? I guess since Mr. Shaw was solo he would have eventually run OOA if he didn't quickly regain consciousness... I think I remember a recent oxtox fatality when a diver thought they had air in a tank that was labeled 100%. CO2 hits and OxTox hits would benefit from FFM wouldn't they? Obviously in the latter case, the fatality could have been prevented in other ways. It still seems to me like the FFM in these cases would provide an additional layer of safety.

Before you guys crucify me, I ask in earnest knowing full well that everyone already participating in this thread has vastly superior knowledge on the subject.