Gear clones - like generic drugs?

[joeabroad]

I was looking at a new mask, a Sherwood Rona. I found out that the Tilos Excel was almost identical to the Rona, and then found out that the Promate Raven was absolutely identical to the Tilos Excel. So I bought the Promate Raven for $25. Looks and feels great.

I'm thinking that there is some money to be saved here by buying these off-brands, but this subject is very little discussed--even Scubaboard is very spotty on the subject of Promate and off-brands in general. To me, it's like buying generic drugs, especially for items that do not require servicing.

Does anyone know of any resource that helps identify these clones or off-brands, or any thorough discussion of them?

 

[Ed Palma]

There are actually a lot of discussions about generic equipment on the board. There's a thread in the regulator forum discussing clones.

It used to be a sticky:

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/regulators/219997-first-stage-clone-chart.html

 

[RJP]

To me, it's like buying generic drugs, especially for items that do not require servicing.

Somewhat offtopic, but apropos nonetheless:

Just so you know - generic drugs are not necessarily EXACTLY the same as the brand name product. There is a misperception that the FDA regulates them such they must be "exactly the same" but in truth a generic drug is allowed a +/- 20% leeway in terms of being equivalent to the brand.

So if your MD prescribed you 100mg of Brand X, but you opt for the generic, you could be getting anywhere from 80mg to 120mg of what your doctor prescribed. And that can vary from one prescription to the next. Maybe 80mg isnt enough to treat you effectively so your doc bumps you from (in his mind) 100 - 120mg. Now you take your Rx for 120mg of Brand X to the pharmacy and get a generic instead. Only this time it's PLUS 20% so you really got 144mg and now you have terrible side effects. The doc think "I only bumped his dose 20%" (100 to 120mg) but in reallity your dose was increased ~60% (from 80mg to 144mg) so really neither you, you pharmacist, or doctor have any idea what dose you were ACTUALLY taking.

Same thing with "generic" scuba gear. It may look the same, you may be told it IS the same, and may be intended to serve the same purpose, but it might not ACTUALLY be the same.

Like with generic drugs, they have their place and can save significant money, but it is incumbent upon the consumer to know what you ARE and ARE NOT getting when you go that route.

 

[Hatul]

Somewhat offtopic, but apropos nonetheless:

Just so you know - generic drugs are not necessarily EXACTLY the same as the brand name product. There is a misperception that the FDA regulates them such they must be "exactly the same" but in truth a generic drug is allowed a +/- 20% leeway in terms of being equivalent to the brand.

So if your MD prescribed you 100mg of Brand X, but you opt for the generic, you could be getting anywhere from 80mg to 120mg of what your doctor prescribed. And that can vary from one prescription to the next. Maybe 80mg isnt enough to treat you effectively so your doc bumps you from (in his mind) 100 - 120mg. Now you take your Rx for 120mg of Brand X to the pharmacy and get a generic instead. Only this time it's PLUS 20% so you really got 144mg and now you have terrible side effects. The doc think "I only bumped his dose 20%" (100 to 120mg) but in reallity your dose was increased ~60% (from 80mg to 144mg) so really neither you, you pharmacist, or doctor have any idea what dose you were ACTUALLY taking.

Same thing with "generic" scuba gear. It may look the same, you may be told it IS the same, and may be intended to serve the same purpose, but it might not ACTUALLY be the same.

Like with generic drugs, they have their place and can save significant money, but it is incumbent upon the consumer to know what you ARE and ARE NOT getting when you go that route.

In most cases it makes no difference whether you take generic or brand name drug except for the great difference in price. Statistically the dose differences are within a few percent and for most drugs it makes little difference. Whether you take 500 mg of Tylenol or 600 it's not going to make much difference.

Adam

 

[HowardE]

It's not "Generic" or a "Clone" it's called "OEM" products.

An equipment manufacturer in someplace like China or maybe Korea; makes a product. They sell it to other companies with the other company's name on the product. This is done with many products in Scuba, including regulators, masks, snorkels, knives, lights, etc, etc, etc...

This practice is not limited to SCUBA by any means.

 

[mdb]

Many SCUBA products are made by the same OEM in China, Taiwan, Indonesia, etc. The prices can vary widely even though the product is the same.

Apollo remains one of the true OEM manufacturers, not the only one, but one of the few.

 

[The Chairman]

At the polar opposite end of folks like Apollo or Deep Sea Supply, are the "manufacturers" who make nothing or close to it. The bulk of their production is done by other factories and offered with their name on it.

 

[RJP]

In most cases it makes no difference whether you take generic or brand name drug except for the great difference in price. Statistically the dose differences are within a few percent...

Like I said, they have their place, but people need to get the erroneous thought out of their head that they are "exactly the same" as the brand, because they are not. They are not even REQUIRED to be the same by the FDA. Not sure how +/- 20% is "within a few percent" in your mind, but so be it... especially if the patient is on something like phenytoin, theophylline, warfarin, digoxin, levothyroxine or any of the hundreds of drugs with a narrow therapeutic window or that need to be finely titrated. In fact it would be less of a problem if you always got THE SAME generic, but retail pharmacists change suppliers week to week, so you could be +20% this week, down 40% the next week, etc. Add to that the fact that polypharmacy runs rampant in disease states such as hypertension, CHF, asthma, depression, epilepsy, etc and you've got three or four different drugs swinging +/-20%. Ultimately neither you or your patient really know how much of anything the patient is really taking or where a change in efficacy or side effects is coming from.

Folks just need to understand the truth - instead of accepting the party line - so they can make an informed decision.

 

[ba_hiker]

how many companies actually manufacture regulator first stages?

Seems i read somewhere that only a handful of companies made most of the
first stages sold worldwide.

they are really not that hard to make (for anyone that can cast/forge
brass and bronze, has a multitool machining center, and chrome plating
or anodizing equipment), but the setup and tooling, quality requirements,
cost constraints and small market conspire to limit manufacturers in
this market. or so i read.

the article (long lost.. i looked for it a couple of days ago) suggested that
no one in the USA made them, 3 companies (or so) in europe, and 3 or 4
in asia made nearly all first stages.

 

[HowardE]

how many companies actually manufacture regulator first stages?

Seems i read somewhere that only a handful of companies made most of the
first stages sold worldwide.

they are really not that hard to make (for anyone that can cast/forge
brass and bronze, has a multitool machining center, and chrome plating
or anodizing equipment), but the setup and tooling, quality requirements,
cost constraints and small market conspire to limit manufacturers in
this market. or so i read.

the article (long lost.. i looked for it a couple of days ago) suggested that
no one in the USA made them, 3 companies (or so) in europe, and 3 or 4
in asia made nearly all first stages.

While this is true. Several companies have ownership of their designs. While Manufacturer "X" may not make the regulator in the US. They have a company make it for them to their specifications. So for all intents and purposes - it is theirs.

As opposed to a China company that makes Regulator "Y" and puts a label on it that says, "ScubaBoard" and we go and sell that regulator as the "ScubaBoard Reg 3000" The regulator for the next millennium.