General Vortex Incident Discussion

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There are still so many inconsistancies with the information.
....
What is the real story?
....
One of the things that I have learned on this thread and as I have searched other threads is how many people claim to have cave dived, or are "recreational" cave divers, or are planning a cave diving trip.... Diving overhead environments and diving beyond training has never occurred to me or my regular dive buddies, and I certainly hope with my students, but it is an actual serious problem. That fact has been enlightening and it has already changed my presentation to my students.

The dead can not defend themselves and therefore can do no wrong....
No one is allowed to 'disparage' their good name....
A family wants\needs closure and will cling to whatever fantasy allows them sleep at night....

In this day and age - a diver without formal cave training can hardly be considered 'experienced' - short of launching their own recognized agency...

Pure speculation - I would think they are referring to a data logger like a Sensus or a computer with a downloadable profile.
 
"He was also just certified to be an OW scuba diving instructor."

To the friend (I realize Divedoggie is not the friend) from a realist....

Being an OW Scuba Instructor does not provide the capability to dive a cave any more than it does to be a commercial diver, accountant, engineer, or medical doctor. It takes specific training.

Lots of the first cave divers died in order to provide todays cave divers with a reasonable level of safety in the cave system. Every death brought new information that allowed them to adapt and become safer. Ben's death is nothing more than a waste. Nothing will be learned. Nothing will be gained. He's left his family to mourn the senseless.

There are no winners, there are no heros. Just waste.
 
Kevin can you be more descriptive?

Couldn't a diver swim near the area of the obstruciton, release a camera, and let the water flow carry the camera the rest of the way where humans cannot squeeze past?

Yes, look at what Shirley and Doug stated.
 
I believe the phrase "recreational cave diving" is an oxymoron.
 
Well thats because its an investigaton and everything is not beng made public. Too much is probably out there now. Once everything is wrapped up, perhaps then we will have some answers. The only fact we need right now is that he was not a CAVE diver. If he was he might have had the reasoning to turn around before its too late or he wouldnt have been there in the first place. Ths needs to be a good lesson to anyone attempting to go into an overhead without training.

There are still so many inconsistancies with the information.

This from a friend of Ben's who had been in contact with people onsite:

Ben McDaniel presumed lost at sea. - Sunshine Underground
Ben had been diving this particular cave for about 2-3 months now. He was there almost everyday sometimes more than once in the same day. He was pretty familiar with it and level of danger it possessed and more than likely just got a little too confident in his skill set probably adding to his decision to dive alone. People knew of his plan to go down there, one of the other instructors was coming up as he was going in but because he was known to dive more than once in a day it's possible that person thought he might have been on a second or third dive after Wednesday evening and into Thursday morning. He was also just certified to be an OW scuba diving instructor.

Ben had recently bought an electronic device that tracked where he went, how deep he was, how long he was in a certain area, strokes and things like that. It did not have GPS. That was apparently going to be his next big diving purchase.

Where Ben is no other diver wants to risk going down there. He is very far back in an area that is uncharted and hasn't even been explored by another diver due to the amount of danger in that particular part of the cave. The person who is making the dive lives in the area but was out of town. He has flown back into town to make the dive and locate the body. He is the most experienced cave diver around, more so than Ben, so if he can't get to him then they will be calling off the search. Recovery will be his call and if it is too risky then it will not happen.


There is a mixture of info stated on this SB thread and info not stated on this SB thread. News reports and other posting boards have conflicting statements.
Maybe its that conflicting info getting back to family and friends that compels them to continue searching and to look for outside reasons behind the incident.

What is the real story?

Was the victim a DiveCon candidate or an OW Instructor?
Was he on friendly terms with the Dive shop and negotiating an OW Instructor position there? Were others aware of his activities over a 2 month period, or did he have an adversarial relationship and conduct dives on the sly?

How many trips back and forth from the parking lot would it take solo, to stage all the tanks and gear on the dock before hitting the water? Nobody saw this? Is this where he was confronted by one of the experienced certified cave divers?

The above post states the "most experienced cave diver around, more so than Ben..."

Electronic device? Black box? GPS?

So, it looks like one camp thinks that Ben was one of the top cave divers with the exception of a very few.

There seems to be an acceptance of Edd's final word, but now a plea for more divers. If the family thinks there is a "black box" type of homing beacon, that in itself might make them insist on continued recovery efforts.

Can someone list all actual facts in a simple outline?
Is there a purposeful with-holding of some information?

One of the things that I have learned on this thread and as I have searched other threads is how many people claim to have cave dived, or are "recreational" cave divers, or are planning a cave diving trip.... Diving overhead environments and diving beyond training has never occurred to me or my regular dive buddies, and I certainly hope with my students, but it is an actual serious problem. That fact has been enlightening and it has already changed my presentation to my students.
 
Just thinking out loud here. If the flow is always coming out, would water samples taken at different parts of the cave and then analyzed to determine the largest concentration of cadaverine maybe indicate the most likely location of the body?

Again, just thinking out loud here, don't know if that would really work.


Could this be a possibility? It sounds plausible.
 
I believe the phrase "recreational cave diving" is an oxymoron.

Most of us are indeed recreational cave divers. Our dives are not ridiculously deep, far into the cave or long (a few hours max). Now the person who fills an entire pickup truck with gear for one 8 hour cave dive... he or she is not a recreational cave diver.
 
There are still so many inconsistancies with the information.

This from a friend of Ben's who had been in contact with people onsite:

Ben McDaniel presumed lost at sea. - Sunshine Underground
Ben had been diving this particular cave for about 2-3 months now. He was there almost everyday sometimes more than once in the same day. He was pretty familiar with it and level of danger it possessed and more than likely just got a little too confident in his skill set probably adding to his decision to dive alone. People knew of his plan to go down there, one of the other instructors was coming up as he was going in but because he was known to dive more than once in a day it's possible that person thought he might have been on a second or third dive after Wednesday evening and into Thursday morning. He was also just certified to be an OW scuba diving instructor.

Ben had recently bought an electronic device that tracked where he went, how deep he was, how long he was in a certain area, strokes and things like that. It did not have GPS. That was apparently going to be his next big diving purchase.

Where Ben is no other diver wants to risk going down there. He is very far back in an area that is uncharted and hasn't even been explored by another diver due to the amount of danger in that particular part of the cave. The person who is making the dive lives in the area but was out of town. He has flown back into town to make the dive and locate the body. He is the most experienced cave diver around, more so than Ben, so if he can't get to him then they will be calling off the search. Recovery will be his call and if it is too risky then it will not happen.

Probably some embellishment involved, also one person repeating a story, and the next person adding to it, etc.

Was the victim a DiveCon candidate or an OW Instructor?

Is it relevant?


Was he on friendly terms with the Dive shop and negotiating an OW Instructor position there?

His family stated the shop was ScubaTech (in Destin) elswhere.

Were others aware of his activities over a 2 month period, or did he have an adversarial relationship and conduct dives on the sly?

The impression I got was that he was TELLING everyone back home that he was a cave/tech diver. What I have seen on the internets, is that he did some dives in Morrison (cavern) and Vortex.

There was evidence that he tampered with the gate to gain access to the cave at Vortex, and documented this in his dive log.

How many trips back and forth from the parking lot would it take solo, to stage all the tanks and gear on the dock before hitting the water? Nobody saw this?

They check your dive certs at the desk, not out on the water. You can't expect the scuba police to be everywhere at once. Vortex is typically a busy place.


The above post states the "most experienced cave diver around, more so than Ben..."

Electronic device? Black box? GPS?

So, it looks like one camp thinks that Ben was one of the top cave divers with the exception of a very few.

Wonder who gave them the impression that he was a top cave diver?

One of the things that I have learned on this thread and as I have searched other threads is how many people claim to have cave dived, or are "recreational" cave divers, or are planning a cave diving trip.... Diving overhead environments and diving beyond training has never occurred to me or my regular dive buddies, and I certainly hope with my students, but it is an actual serious problem. That fact has been enlightening and it has already changed my presentation to my students.

I'm thinking access is the issue. Florida has tons of freshwater caves and caverns. (I seem to remember an estimate of 1,000, but don't hold me to it). If it's 20 feet away from where you are diving anyway, it may be more tempting than if you have to drive six hundred miles. Just a guess though.
 
One of the things that I have learned on this thread and as I have searched other threads is how many people claim to have cave dived, or are "recreational" cave divers, or are planning a cave diving trip.... Diving overhead environments and diving beyond training has never occurred to me or my regular dive buddies, and I certainly hope with my students, but it is an actual serious problem. That fact has been enlightening and it has already changed my presentation to my students.
What's wrong with being a recreational cave diver? I would consider myself one.
 
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