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General Vortex Incident Discussion

Discussion in 'Cave Diving' started by sabbath999, Aug 25, 2010.

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  1. ScubaSteve

    ScubaSteve Wow.....what a DB

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Acton, Ontario
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    I think that people (mainly family and friends) need to accept that it is possible that the body will never be found. This is difficult to hear and even more difficult to do but to put anybody in jeopardy is nothing short of selfish. The best have gone in and come back empty. That right there means that nobody else should be asked to go further.
     
  2. Cave Diver

    Cave Diver Divemaster

    17,866
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    Here are some videos (not mine) that give an idea of the first part of the cave up to the gate.





     
  3. pattidives

    pattidives Angel Fish

    # of Dives: I'm a Fish!
    Location: Panama City Beach
    25
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    My concern with more volunteering would be if they are not familiar with the Vortex system. I am not a cave diver, but I could only imiagine it would be very dangerous for someone to try to recover a body in a cave system they have never entered before. Like I said I am not a cave diver so I don't know for sure. The last thing they need is for someone else to get themselves into trouble.
     
  4. RhinoGuy

    RhinoGuy Angel Fish

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    Im a little worried that people are going to be looking for the body later on and get hurt.
     
  5. netmage

    netmage Rest in Peace Rest in Peace

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Coral Springs, FL
    1,818
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    While I certainly wouldn't disagree with the sentiment that the IUCRR and it's organization, procedures and policy are the best people equipped to respond to a cave recovery,....

    To suggest that a recovery by anyone else is 'illegal' would imply that the IUCRR is mandated or codified into existence by statute or some legal authority - which it is not. The IUCRR is a organization assembled by the cave community as a resource for law enforcement.

    I'm probably nitpicking - I think the proper notion your getting at is: Any Search\Recovery must be done by someone at the request of whichever LE organization in command of the scene... Otherwise you are some jackhole off the street and tampering w/ evidence.
     
  6. Kevin Carlisle

    Kevin Carlisle Loggerhead Turtle

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Wetumpka, Al
    2,370
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    Tim thanks. I was going off information I was told a while back from both ICURR and law enforcement officials. Main reason was tampering with evidence is a crime. Not sure who's right but you do make a valid point. I would snoop around but I have no intentions of becoming an ICURR person.
     
  7. Spd 135

    Spd 135 Solo Diver

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Slidell La
    715
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    Any death that is un-natural is considered a homicide. At my department, unless a death at home is hospice or home health (can't afford hospice but someone will die at home due to their illness) related, we investigate it. Suicides are also investigated as a homicide in case information comes up later that would suggest it wasn't a suicide. We have a team of officers that investigate traffic fatalities or serious injury. We close the whole road and work it as if it was a homicide (because it is). We photograph everything in and around the scene so that we can look back if a question comes up later that wasn't brought up in the begining.

    When a person dies in a cave, let's say JB, and there was someone there to witness the event to some degree, the scene would likely not be secured and investigated the same way, as long as the victim's state corroberates the witnesses story.

    In this case one can only suppose he is in there due to evidence found, but since he wasn't found and there may be possible info leading to a hoax (don't know, just throwing it out for example) the whole thing is considered a crime scene because it is likely a homicide (un-natural death) occurred. Once a scene is released, or not secured at all, you cannot go back and gather information because it is in a different state than it was immediately after it was secured.

    Hope this helps a bit.
     
  8. ScubaNurse758

    ScubaNurse758 Solo Diver

    # of Dives: 100 - 199
    Location: Villa Rica, Georgia
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    Which part is being considered a crime scene? I was lead to believe that the park was open over the weekend, so is just the cave roped off or the parking area where his car was left, or is the diving area as a whole being searched?
     
  9. mike_s

    mike_s Solo Diver

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    From the video I saw, initially they closed off the whole basin area with yellow tape.

    At that time they didn't know if he was in the basin, the cave, etc. I'm sure his truck was included in being a "closed off area" as it searched for clues of his whereabouts.

    I think the cave is still closed for diving. however I think the basin and now open for diving (as he's not in the basin).
     
  10. Kingpatzer

    Kingpatzer Captain

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location:
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    A more general question: what is the typical recover success rate in caves when accidents like this happen? It's been stated that untrained divers have a tendency to panic and go off in all kinds of weird directions and doing pretty much everything wrong. That certainly suggest the possibility of many ending up not recoverable.

    Is the cave community pretty successful in recoveries, or is it far more hit and miss? In a generic case, should the family be led to expect a recovery or led to expect that it is not likely?
     
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