GUE Cave Training?

[vicp]

What makes you think they are not willing to even look at changes? Have you ever talked with Jarrod or David Rhea or Mark M about why they dive the way they do? I've talked with Jarrod about sidemount, CCRs and heck even miflex hoses. He always had reasonable answers to everything that we talked about. Even on topics that were outside of standard for GUE.

Even if you don't appreciate the conservative/pragmatic approach that GUE takes, I would at least hope that you recognize that its good for people to have an option like GUE. There are already plenty of organizations out there who are happy to sell you on the latest fads.

It's the whole idea that what YOU do must be approved by the "wise council" of your superiors (the "THEY") that makes this whole thing smell like a religion, or even worse, a cult.

An viable organization needs to have and reflect dynamic input from it's members, otherwise it is doomed to be nothing but a legion of lemmings.

 

[Adobo]

You are either a) barking up the wrong tree, or b) misinterpreting my post. I am a supporter of GUE and the DIR system. I am also an ex GUE mentored and DIR dover. I never once said they are not open to change. I have talked to some of those same individuals about SM before. Some have seen my sidemount rig and agreed that I did a good job at incorporating DIR gear philosophy in to my rig.

I apologize if this post makes since, I am out celebrating with friend ms over margaritas and nachos.

I have no idea what you are saying.

But totally acceptable since you are posting while drinking margaritas.

---------- Post added March 12th, 2013 at 02:38 PM ----------

It's the whole idea that what YOU do must be approved by the "wise council" of your superiors (the "THEY") that makes this whole thing smell like a religion, or even worse, a cult.

An viable organization needs to have and reflect dynamic input from it's members, otherwise it is doomed to be nothing but a legion of lemmings.

I would suggest that you ask yourself, what is more likely? A) GUE is an organization that teaches a very specific way to dive (with certs that expire every 3 years). And that's pretty much it. or B) GUE is really a cult that has a council of elders looking to control the lives of anyone and everyone who has ever taken a GUE class, is looking to bilk its members for huge donations and is ultimately looking to position itself for world domination.

Personally, I think it is A. But who knows, maybe GUE's mind control techniques are so effective that they can control my thoughts from 3000 miles away.

 

[vicp]

I would suggest that you ask yourself, what is more likely? A) GUE is an organization that teaches a very specific way to dive (with certs that expire every 3 years). And that's pretty much it. or B) GUE is really a cult that has a council of elders looking to control the lives of anyone and everyone who has ever taken a GUE class, is looking to bilk its members for huge donations and is ultimately looking to position itself for world domination.

Personally, I think it is A. But who knows, maybe GUE's mind control techniques are so effective that they can control my thoughts from 3000 miles away.

From the responses I am getting, it sort of sound like a combination of both A & B, with heavier on the B for those that may have partaken too much of the "kool-aid."

Hey ALL - I think I am signing out of this thread - I do have a life to live

The "Stroke" Kid

 

[Cyprian]

I would suggest that you ask yourself, what is more likely? A) GUE is an organization that teaches a very specific way to dive (with certs that expire every 3 years). And that's pretty much it. or B) GUE is really a cult that has a council of elders looking to control the lives of anyone and everyone who has ever taken a GUE class, is looking to bilk its members for huge donations and is ultimately looking to position itself for world domination.

Personally, I think it is A. But who knows, maybe GUE's mind control techniques are so effective that they can control my thoughts from 3000 miles away.

LOL.....Adobo, thanks for the laugh. I do get the message though and agree completely. Far too many people get bent out of shape because they want GUE to be "B" when all along it's really "A". It's a diving system folks. It is a system with standardization that adapts and evolves as needed. If you don't like it, then don't dive the GUE system, but don't start turning it into "B" because it does not fit your approach to diving.

We have already discussed, ad nauseum, that you will have a-holes in any agency just like you have a-holes in any position in the workforce, in clubs, groups, etc. Stop beating the dead horse. It's reality wherever you go. I encounter people like this often that have never taken a breath off of a reg underwater and don't care to. It is their nature. Etc...etc...etc.

In the end, GUE is a diving system. More specifically it is the "A" that Adobo describes in the post above. People make it "B" because they....honestly, I have no idea why people make it "B" other than what I said above....they want it to be "B". LOL.

Safe dives,

Cyp

 

[TSandM]

And, btw, there is a link on the GUE website for divers -- not instructors, or training council members -- to suggest changes. They ARE reviewed. They aren't always adopted.

EVERY agency has a core of people who set standards. We have a PADI instructor's manual that is a couple of inches thick, that has the standards and teaching recommendations for every single PADI class. What's different about the GUE training council?

 

[Scott L]

From the responses I am getting, it sort of sound like a combination of both A & B, with heavier on the B for those that may have partaken too much of the "kool-aid."

Hey ALL - I think I am signing out of this thread - I do have a life to live

The "Stroke" Kid

Next time you are near Tallahassee, FL, stop by the WKPP Project and give them some tips on dives 26,000 feet into the extreme depths of the Wakulla and Leon Sinks cave systems (300'+) lasting over 30 hours. Bring a bunch of HP Milflex hoses. They would appreciate that.

 

[lamont]

I've been involved with GUE for seven years, and I've seen things evolve. They evolve slowly, when there is no true imperative for change, and very rapidly, when a strong reason is seen. For example, my original training was that there was no need to verify switches on and off stages, since stages were the same as backgas; after Jim Miller's accident, they instantly changed that teaching (which led to an embarrassing moment in a cave in MX, when my recently trained buddy waited very patiently for me to verify his stage pickup, when I had no intention of doing so ). The valve drill has changed, the S-drill has changed, the mnemonics taught to the divers have changed. When things need improving, they get improved. But change for its own sake is regarded very dubiously; Jarrod has said in print that the core value of the system is standardization, and when we breach that, we throw away a great many good things.

When I took Cave 2 from Danny in Mexico in 2009 we were taught validation of MOD on the stages...

I think this wasn't standardized before and there was some regional/instructor variation, glad to hear that got sorted out now...

 

[JamesK]

i have no idea what you are saying.

but totally acceptable since you are posting while drinking margaritas.

lol

 

[rjack321]

When I took Cave 2 from Danny in Mexico in 2009 we were taught validation of MOD on the stages...

I think this wasn't standardized before and there was some regional/instructor variation, glad to hear that got sorted out now...

I was taught the same back in June 2008. However in the case of Jim Miller he had multiple stage bottles on and started breathing the wrong one on the surface. I don't recall the accident report but its possible he was driving the RB80 with 50% on the surface intentionally to avoid the ppO2 drop into hypoxic levels. And then never switched off that drive gas like he should have at 70ft (or above). Not only should he have switched off the 50%, but he should have dropped that bottle shallow too.

In any case, verification of stages is part of the C2 course BUT most of us (myself included) don't go verifying every stage switch in a cave. We buddy verify that we aren't bringing a gas deeper than its MOD once and don't agonize over the buddy checks thereafter. For single stage bottle dives in MX... its rather silly to be sitting there waiting for a buddy to confirm that your only stage, which you breathed half of on the way in, is suitable to breath on the way out.

 

[ucfdiver]

I was taught the same back in June 2008. However in the case of Jim Miller he had multiple stage bottles on and started breathing the wrong one on the surface. I don't recall the accident report but its possible he was driving the RB80 with 50% on the surface intentionally to avoid the ppO2 drop into hypoxic levels. And then never switched off that drive gas like he should have at 70ft (or above). Not only should he have switched off the 50%, but he should have dropped that bottle shallow too.

I don't think this is true. It's my understanding that he was breathing 120 gas from the surface, dropped the deep gas at 70ft, then switched to the 70 bottle at 120.

In any case, verification of stages is part of the C2 course BUT most of us (myself included) don't go verifying every stage switch in a cave. We buddy verify that we aren't bringing a gas deeper than its MOD once and don't agonize over the buddy checks thereafter. For single stage bottle dives in MX... its rather silly to be sitting there waiting for a buddy to confirm that your only stage, which you breathed half of on the way in, is suitable to breath on the way out.

I agree here. What I took from the accident is that after leaving every bottle drop, verify that the bottles you're carrying are "safe".