GUE/DIR/WKPP vs the world?

[SuPrBuGmAn]

I think it'd be much easier to open other sites within Wakulla Springs State Park property, after the most visible of them is opened.

 

[Dsix36]

So prove it. Go push EOL at caves where WKPP members hold it currently while maintaining a near flawless safety record. Cathedral EOL is wide open for you. WKPP holds (one of the) EOL at Manatee, go tag that. Some Western leon sinks are open to the public, go find a tunnel they missed. Spring Creek has very little exploration currently done to it, go extend WKPP's line there.

When you've done that, talk to the state and show where you've had more success than the WKPP. Don't forget that the WKPP didn't start their efforts at Wakulla, they had developed an impressive record elsewhere in the region.

First of all, you need to chill and stop trying to tell me what to do! Telling any diver to go push limits is very stupid. Do I push limits - yes, did you know that - hell no.
I am not trying to say that I could push the EOL in all these systems, but I damn well could dive them to my own personal limits very safely.

I don't have the experience of the WKPP either, and don't give a f**k about it either.

This is more a matter of being told that I can't dive there and the resentment because of it. Do I give a damn about the site - no. It is doubtful that I would make the effort to go even if I was allowed. Like you said, there are plenty of other places to dive.

 

[lamont]

This is more a matter of being told that I can't dive there and the resentment because of it. Do I give a damn about the site - no. It is doubtful that I would make the effort to go even if I was allowed. Like you said, there are plenty of other places to dive.

so you're unwilling to do any work -- both in applying to the state and in achieving goals that would make it useful to have you diving in that system -- and you wouldn't even go dive the site if it was open -- but everyone should take you seriously because you're upset enough to post about it on the internet?

that attitude is probably a big part of why you don't have doors like that open to you...

 

[Dsix36]

so you're unwilling to do any work -- both in applying to the state and in achieving goals that would make it useful to have you diving in that system -- and you wouldn't even go dive the site if it was open -- but everyone should take you seriously because you're upset enough to post about it on the internet?

that attitude is probably a big part of why you don't have doors like that open to you...

If I really had the desire to dive the system then It would be easier to join the WKPP and kiss their arses for 20 years and then do the dive. I have no problem doing work and submitting requests. I know damn good and well that I can not personally offer the kind of experience that the state wants. Applying to the state would be a complete waste of time and we both know that. I do this as recreation, it is not a crusade to dive everywhere.

As for anyone taking me seriously? Do you think I give a f**k what others think? I guess that I am the only one that has the balls to go against the DIR/GUE groupies around here. BFD, no one cares.

I am more than happy diving the sites that are open to me. I find more and more places to dive every year. WKPP can keep their special places shoved right up where the sun don't shine.

Ya'all can carry on without me. I have said my bit on the subject. Like I said this is all old news. Do a search for the history.

 

[ucfdiver]

First of all, you need to chill and stop trying to tell me what to do! Telling any diver to go push limits is very stupid. Do I push limits - yes, did you know that - hell no.
I am not trying to say that I could push the EOL in all these systems, but I damn well could dive them to my own personal limits very safely.

I don't have the experience of the WKPP either, and don't give a f**k about it either.

This is more a matter of being told that I can't dive there and the resentment because of it. Do I give a damn about the site - no. It is doubtful that I would make the effort to go even if I was allowed. Like you said, there are plenty of other places to dive.

I could dive them to my personal limits, too. But the state isn't looking for people to give a can of cheese whiz to the pretty fishies, they want results, which you can't deliver.

In a recreational context, I'm all for opening these sites. In a scientific context, the WKPP does everything the state has asked, and there's no group able to compete with them that isn't tied up elsewhere. None of us have the diving resume' to demand scientific access to Wakulla. Jarrod actually helped with the Emerald opening, so you're fussing at someone who *has* tried to assist with access. Of course, no one ever dives there, so I'm not sure how motivated he is to help again.

As for anyone taking me seriously? Do you think I give a f**k what others think? I guess that I am the only one that has the balls to go against the DIR/GUE groupies around here. BFD, no one cares.

Who exactly are you taking on? None of the WKPP members active on this site have any sort of pull with the state's access policies. Actually if you're not a dickhead, most of them will share other spots where you can dive...but you'd have to stop pissing and moaning long enough to get to know them.

I am more than happy diving the sites that are open to me.

Funny, you just said it was a sore area.

Like I said this is all old news. Do a search for the history.

Older than either of our cave diving careers-- why get so upset over fighting that took place 10 years ago and didn't involve you?

 

[danvolker]

First of all, you need to chill and stop trying to tell me what to do! Telling any diver to go push limits is very stupid. Do I push limits - yes, did you know that - hell no.
I am not trying to say that I could push the EOL in all these systems, but I damn well could dive them to my own personal limits very safely.

I don't have the experience of the WKPP either, and don't give a f**k about it either.

This is more a matter of being told that I can't dive there and the resentment because of it. Do I give a damn about the site - no. It is doubtful that I would make the effort to go even if I was allowed. Like you said, there are plenty of other places to dive.

Keep in mind many, many closures to the public in the 90's occurred due to deaths in caves, and no probability that the deaths would stop--more likely it was thought they would become even more "common". Neither private land owners or state interests can "afford" behaviors on owned lands that are likely to lead to deaths.

WKPP got Wakulla opened back up....it had been closed. They had the record, and could make the assurances.

Even if you are an excellent diver, without a huge track record for penetrations similar to Wakulla ( AND THERE REALLY AREN'T ANY) what reason would the State have to open themselves up to more liability?

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

I want to dive it recreationally, and I lets face it, you, I, or any other halfwit can dive Wakulla-Leon system sites elsewhere without any checks or balances. All it takes is a little motivation... and people aren't dying all over the place.

Just like deaths aren't super prevelant at sites like Eagles Nest, etc.




I think the state is willing to "afford" alot more if it means more revenue from cave divers, we'll see I guess.

 

[danvolker]

I want to dive it recreationally, and I lets face it, you, I, or any other halfwit can dive Wakulla-Leon system sites elsewhere without any checks or balances. All it takes is a little motivation... and people aren't dying all over the place.

Just like deaths aren't super prevelant at sites like Eagles Nest, etc.




I think the state is willing to "afford" alot more if it means more revenue from cave divers, we'll see I guess.

One problem would be all the halfwits that want to climb Everest, or K2, or any cave diving equivalents....WAKULLA is right up there with Everest, in it's attractiveness to someone wanting to "prove themselves". It's one thing when the person does what it takes to prepare...and quite another when they just decide that they can do it without the training.
Unlike many of the other cave systems, Wakulla has an Everest type association....obviously the state needs to be cautious about all the Darwin Award candidates that would see WAKULLA as their ticket to fame.

As to revenue, you must be kidding....all cave revenue if Florida for a year is probably a fraction of Fishing revenue for one day. Potential costs for cave emergencies and accidents can be another story.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

I bet thats the kinda garbage thats being fed to the state.

Kidding? Nah, if you look at the economical studies at places like JB, its(money) nothing to ignore. Will Wakulla get that kind of participation? I sures hell doubt it, but there are studies that show an interest and economical incentive to opening Wakulla - a state park, thats not getting any revenue for fishing(which is oddly nonrelated to any of this, in any way).


Why aren't people kacking themselves at Eagles Nest(ya know, the site that is FAMOUS for being compared to Everest of cave diving? - laughable, I agree, but true) on the regular basis, shooting for EOL? Cathedral? Manatee? Litterally hundreds of other caves in FL?


When was the last time ANYONE died shooting for the EOL in the US, anywhere? Who's died lately, trying to make a name for themselves in the US? 99% of the easy EOLs are taken, everything requires work nowadays, work that the great majority of divers aren't willing to put forth. Most of the people making a name for themselves are so far under the radar, most DON'T know their names... which is how they apparently like it.




Not everyone wants to shoot for EOL. Some(read as nearly all) people just want to get a fun dive in. The '90s... Two decades ago... Training and information are far more readily available now, than then. In no small part, I'm sure, due to the actions of some of the other agencies that work for educating the general public(divers and otherwise).

 

[ucfdiver]

When was the last time ANYONE died shooting for the EOL in the US, anywhere?

March 10, 2008-- Mark Fyvie @ Ginnie