Guides (DMs) getting lost

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If your buddy that had 350psi remaining at some unknown point...

Did he or anyone attempt to communicate this to the DM? The DM must have communicated in some fashion, "follow me". Did 350 just not get the signal out, a likely problem for a diver in that situation. Did you try to communicate that "alarming" status?

During our dive briefing, these words were said: "If you can't see your guide, you're lost. If you're lost, surface and look for the boat." So we were following the guide.

Grace ("350") was perhaps not doing an exemplary job of monitoring her SPG and communicating her situation to the guide. She is 14. Our instructions were to give the "turn" signal at 1500, which she had done. I did mention after the dive that she could perhaps do a better job monitoring her air and making sure the guide/DM/buddies are aware of her situation.

Were you ready to ascend right then with the 350 guy and display a SMB? You said conditions were calm, so you could have waited with him for the boat to come get you after other divers boarded.

I was. As I noted in the OP, I was on the verge of sharing air (my cylinder was at 1000 PSI), which seemed like the most practicable way to conclude the dive safely and without making a scene.

But 350 made it through that 5+ minute shallow swim, no small feat. Obviously not the best skill sets, hyper buoyant by then, shallow depths exacerbating buoyancy, under mental stress from staring at SPG, a fast pace.... I mean really, this 350 diver pulled a major rabbit out of the hat. The way you describe their situation, I would have seen 350 in an OOA and at least so bouyant that they went all corklike. Miraculous, actually.

She is a former competitive swimmer and is extremely comfortable in the water, and was largely nonplussed by the situation. She was maybe a little floaty but didn't seem to care.

If you don't feel it was a safety problem, what is the relevance of this story? The way you couch it, I am thinking you believe it was a safety issue, it may well have been. Dunno.

I was, at the time, processing it as a troubling situation that deserved close attention to avoid the possibility of it becoming an emergency.

You are a "solo diver", I assume this means you carry a completely redundant air supply beyond that 120cf tank you prefer. Were you ready to hand that redundant supply over to the 350 and let him continue underwater?

My kit varies situationally. On this dive I had a short-filled AL100 as I had used my HP120 on the previous dive on this trip. I did not have a redundant air supply, and I have not practiced stage bottle handoffs with these two. I would not attempt a stage handoff to an OOA diver who had not practiced it beforehand even if I had one. On this dive I was ready to hand over a primary reg on a 40" hose and breathe off my secondary. I was also ready to surface and sort out the problems there.

Do DMs get lost? Rarely. Depends on the DM and locale. What were his announced duties?
Navigation, and getting us back on the boat with 500 PSI and before 60 minutes was up.

No reason for you to rush after the DM leaving 350 behind. You could have easily noted his newly aquired heading and stayed at 15' depth with 350 instead of stretching the line of vision out so far. If all else fails, you could also blip to the surface, take a heading, then continue the march homeward.

Certainly a valid alternative.

Does this happen? All of those things? Yes, all the time.

Hmm.

In my guiding experience, it is relatively uncommon, but can be very site specific. Some sites are just really easy to get lost in and if you are depending on natural navigation only, you are going to get lost.

We were on Molasses Reef, near Key Largo, which I wouldn't consider particularly difficult to navigate as there are any number of major, unmistakable landmarks. I've only been on the reef 3 or 4 times and don't have the relationships between the landmarks memorized.

I believe our guide was trying to take us on a very slow circular path, instead of multiple out-and-backs or a single out-and-return. I didn't see him take any compass headings.

But realizing your mistake and sprinting back to the boat rather than do the surface swim of shame? That's not acceptable in my book, but still happens unfortunately.

+1

Without sounding too negative, the decision of the OP to position himself in the middle of the DM and the daughter because he was trying to avoid being "lost" was understandable but not the best decision. A failure to properly evaluate priorities. It was probably more important to maintain the buddy system and if the two end up lost (together) on a shallow anchor dive.. well that is embarrassing, but should not be dangerous if you have an smb and a captain is on the ball.

Not an "accident" but a good opportunity to think about how situations evolve toward an incident.

..nod.. It didn't help that we were diving as a threesome. I don't think the third diver realized what was going on. She was ahead closer to the DM, and was still good on air.

Though no one has mentioned it, one of my "take aways" from this sequence of events is that I am trying to pay closer attention to navigation when following a guide around.
 
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Pretty much the same thing occurred last summer with my son and I (and 3 others) following a then new DM. Presumably the same outfit. Pushing a camera rig, I did not like the massive burst of speed to get back in the allotted time then at all, nor did I like that the DM needed to pop up 3 times to trust the heading taken or to be sure it was taken for the right boat. By the second pop up I did not care what the DM might have signaled, took my own heading and wrote on my slate "DM lost, stay with me" for my son who remained at 15' and resolved to pop my SMB/DSMB at 600 PSI from 15' and we'll swim back if need be (I like a minimal reserve for in case there was a need to briefly submerge to get out of the way of a boat or in whatever case).
Due to us having had a DM situation elsewere the year prior and having had that "buddy over DM" talk then, he understood perfectly well.

Another couple that really struggled to keep up surfaced with me to voiced their concern. I just told them yeah the DM is lost and getting unecessarily hectic but should have a correct heading now and if not, I do and I won't loose sight of them. I even thought the DM might have heard that (I intended that). But judging by the continued high rate of sperd maybe not. Anyway, that talk and a lot of exchanged OKs and a couple of air checks I did on them seemed to help their anxious looks...
Anyway it did not come to needing to swim back... (just)

But we covered an awful lot of ground that last 15 minutes and it took letting the DM get almost out of sight for her to finally get the message to slow down a bit...
...
Funny coincidence (I thought, not the DM):
This spring, same outfit but w/o my son, I dove solo on dives my wife chose to rest. On one of those there was that same DM. I asked if she remembered the crazy fast "find the boat marathon" from a dive last August and the face and the words were telling a lot. She was quite embarassed and she said she was a brand spanking new DM then and remembers well... and said that does not happen anymore...
Only I thought it was funny when I then said (w/o anyone really listening in) "yeah, but now I have to dive solo to avoid that"...
Anyway, the initial honest answer and her horrified (funny to me) reaction to that remark was good for a decent tip.
....
All that said, I find it quite wrong and potentially quite dangerous that a DM would, after realizing how lost and how far out, speed up so dramatically that half the clients literally cannot keep up ... just to get back in time so as to hide the fact how badly lost they were (logic imho sort of dictates that ought to be the real reason for the speed up, no matter what is said).

Dive outfits should very much discourage that unreasonable hurry up part. It does not increase safety in any way, puts paying customers in a conflicted situation or syraight out in fear and it very well could get an unsuspecting, struggling follower, maybe too preoccupied with fulfilling his/her following duties (or very worried about being left behind), into potentially serious CO trouble (pending depth and exertion and duration thereoff, maybe less so at 20' at Molasses Reef, but...). ...
 
@Schwob,

For a brand new (at the time) DM, how much do you think you think she was simply over her head, that she had no idea getting into this how little she knew about what she didn't know, and how poorly she was for so much responsibility. I think that I may have acted just as poorly after I became a PADI DM, as I didn't learn about managing people through my training, but through real world experience. My navigation skills were probably better than most (one DM I knew had absolutely no clue as to how to use a compass. His navigation was really atrocious, and fortunately he never worked as a guide).

While I agree that dive outfits should discourage the hurry up part, they are part of the problem in that they want dive pros who are willing to accept low wages. The only way to get a steady stream of that is simply insufficient training.

Hopefully my comment is relevant to the topic at hand. I don't have a solution, as the market forces are the root cause to events described here.
 
I don't mind that much if a DM/guide gets lost on a shallow reef dive unless they come up a couple hundred yards down-current from the boat. This happened a couple of times on one short Key Largo dive trip. As much as I sometimes enjoy letting somebody else handle the nav (so I can sightsee) on a benign reef bimble, unless mentioned in the dive brief, if a DM takes off with the current at the start of the dive, I wave buh-bye DM/guide. :happywave:
 
S**t happens. Everyone makes mistakes from time to time. I have failed to return the group to the descent point before for a variety of reasons. Definitely not a common occurrence but it has happened once of twice. If the boat is mobile and not moored or anchored then the DM should have brought the group together and waited for a pick up. If not he should have continually monitored the group and made a slow return to the boat at everyone’s comfortable pace. At the very least I would acknowledge it to the group following the dive. I’d probably even slip something in there to upsell the nav specialty or make a joke.

If I were the DM or the operator I would be open to feedback from you to give the opportunity for them to learn, grow and ensure it doesn’t happen again. The DM may think nobody said anything so it must be ok.

I’d be disappointed if any of the DMs I trained did this but the only way they can realise they’ve messed up is if someone pulls them up.
 
I think for the DM to take off quickly that is flat out wrong. It is basically a case of professional panic. Period.
 
As far as DMs getting lost, I'm sure it happens from time to time, and most DMs learn to be good at covering it up when it happens. But swimming off like that with no communication is unprofessional, even if not especially dangerous in this case. Better to communicate even if they have to admit they goofed, and everyone can joke about it on the boat later. Trouble with situations like this it's sometimes hard to know at the time things start to get wonky if you're better off trying to stick with a DM you were already following, or do your own thing - hindsight is wonderful. If you knew surface conditions were fine, in this case I might have surfaced with the daughters to see exactly what was going on yourself. Maybe not keep swimming if someone was at 350, especially since pressure gauges aren't always accurate. Then you could decide whether to surface swim, duck back under and swim below, or request a pickup. (It's not the dingy of shame when the DM messed up.)
(Reading more, sounds like you had one daughter way ahead and one behind? That's not a threesome. anymore... )

We had a guide on a Roatan liveaboard not be able to find Mary's place. There were a few mitigating circumstance, but that oops couldn't be hidden. (He actually didn't dive there often, and he claimed someone had moved a marker.) And a "DM" on Utila that was inexperienced and generally clueless. We learned to ignore her, though not quickly enough. In hindsight I would have started ignoring her sooner, but we didn't realize right away that she was worthless as a guide, and we still wanted to dive with the other people in the group. There was another DM there who was supposed to be a great guide and critter spotter, and we might also have tried to switch, but he had his own issues.
 
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The valuable thing I'm taking away from these replies is that the real problem was the sprint, not the getting lost. I didn't see that before but now it makes sense.

I'm making a mental note to discuss, on a future dive, the importance of staying with the buddy team rather than the DM if forced to choose.
 
Very easy to get lost on those shallow reef dives in Key Largo, I usually have to surface once or twice to get my bearing, unless your staying in a real tight circle.

I was there last weekend and looped back to the boat and didn't swim long enough and turned before the boat and swam about 100 yards passed it.
 
The valuable thing I'm taking away from these replies is that the real problem was the sprint, not the getting lost. I didn't see that before but now it makes sense.

I'm making a mental note to discuss, on a future dive, the importance of staying with the buddy team rather than the DM if forced to choose.
Remember the theme from Top Gun???
 

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