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Heart Rate monitor for Precise Decompression
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Scot, You never know what marketing guys are doing...
and Scubapro is a seprate company from Uwatec that
does the marketing. Uwatec has very competent R&D
that know what they are doing.
I think that this subject is too complex for most people
that haven't worked with dive computers.
To reiterate:
The effect on decompression time is indirect and comes through
the physilogy, but strictly speaking the heart rate
doesn't change the way a decompression calculation is done.
Niclas
and Scubapro is a seprate company from Uwatec that
does the marketing. Uwatec has very competent R&D
that know what they are doing.
I think that this subject is too complex for most people
that haven't worked with dive computers.
To reiterate:
The effect on decompression time is indirect and comes through
the physilogy, but strictly speaking the heart rate
doesn't change the way a decompression calculation is done.
Niclas
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To reiterate:
Uwatec comes up with a sketchy theory.
ScubaPro markets it as the gospel.
Par for the course.
Uwatec comes up with a sketchy theory.
ScubaPro markets it as the gospel.
Par for the course.
The lungs has an equivalent area of a tennis field. This means that
the mass transfer in the lungs is very efficient. Blood leaving the lungs
is completly saturated with oxygene and nitrogene.
Nitrogene is transported in the body with the blood stream. A high flow
(high heart rate)means that many tissues will saturate faster as the time constant
changes with the flow through the tissue.
This is as opposed to modells with fixed time constants.
Effectively we have an infinte dimensional model.
low heart rate->long time constants, slow saturation
high heart rate-> small time constants, fast saturation
this is in particular for compartments where the flow changes a lot.
This is a very good example of a non-linear effects in the human body, that
are not that hard to modell.
In particular muscles are highly capillarized for effective supply of oxygene.
Unfortunately this also means effective supply of nitrogene.
All diving phsyiologists I have talked with agree that it is a good thing
to modell the mechanism. The problem was always the missing meaurement
of heart rate, but now that it is.
I appologize for my poor english.
Dive safely,
Niclas
Maybe I'm drawing the wrong conclusion...but the last thing I want to do is get my heartrate up while doing deep or deco diving. Sounds like a sales tactic for a POS. It handles 3 gases anyways and is 2k with all the bells and whistles....pass
- Messages
- 22,171
- Reaction score
- 2,790
- # of dives
- 5000 - ∞
One might be able to abstract a tweak from heart rate, but it would be, at best, a third order effect and as such buried down in the noise of the model. Hardly worth bothering with in my opinion, but a great marketing tool in the manufacturer's. I'm just suggesting that we not bother with third, or for that matter second order effects until all the first order effects are known and well modeled.
During the last years 8 years I have heard about at least 2 portable online bubble monitoring systems failing in devlopment or being unreliable. Even if we had online bubble measurement it is not clear that it would be beneficial as we are maybe too late out when the bubbles are already in the blood and measurable. It seems like hear rate is the easiest way to add one additional measurement that brings some vital new information.
The primary variables of diving are pressure and time. Still we will have to progress towards better tissue and bubble modells. Tissue modells(watery/fatty, bone) will depend on the composition and in addition we have the transport/flow processes. Any modell that aspires to be realistic and build on first principles will contain theese basic variables. To the extent that bubbles are born in msucles we will always need the flow(heart rate) to describe absorption as the flow changes with work. With a bubble model ontop we are done.
How is heart rate be used today in diffrent applications? Most people probably do
not understand how versatile hear rate is.
The single most common use of HR is for calories. The prirmary functions of the heart and lungs is to supply the body with oxygen O2 and remove CO2. The stochiometric proportions between fuel burned and oxygen is refflected in the changing hear rate.
An important feature of heart rate is the variablity(HRV). As a rule variablity is largest at rest and then decreases with increasing heart rate. Polar uses this in the own-zone feature to extract a comfortable hear rate zone for training. This zone actually changes on a day to day basis and reacts to the persons general state. When you are more fitt you get a higher zone.
Another way heart rate variablity is used is in determing VO2max. VO2max is a mesure of fittness. This is actually a very nice feature. You just lay down on the bed and relax and a HR monitor will tell you have fitt you are.
Many deceases of the heart are visible in the features of the heart signal.
Chaotic dynamics is typical for a healthy heart. A sick heart beats regulary at rest.
Out of heart rate one can extract breathing breathing as it is modulated on top of HR.
With hear rate one can do an orthostatic test. A person lies down and stands up. Out of the response from the heart one can see if the person should train more, less or if he is overtrained or continue as before.
HRV can also be used in early syncop detection.
With heart rate one can also estimate lactate.
It would be interesting to look at HR variablity in e.g Nitrox divers to see if one could detect e.g. oxygene poisoning early. Maybe somebody reading can comment? I wouldn't be surprised if somebody is already looking into this. Many nitrox divers also suffer headaches and it would be truly interesting to look for possible correlations in the hear rate.
Heart rate is a very basic measurement of the human body that really can tell a lot of information about the health of a person.
Niclas
Polar - Listen to your body
30 years of innovation for every body.
Works for Polar and has opinions, but not a spokesperson.
The primary variables of diving are pressure and time. Still we will have to progress towards better tissue and bubble modells. Tissue modells(watery/fatty, bone) will depend on the composition and in addition we have the transport/flow processes. Any modell that aspires to be realistic and build on first principles will contain theese basic variables. To the extent that bubbles are born in msucles we will always need the flow(heart rate) to describe absorption as the flow changes with work. With a bubble model ontop we are done.
How is heart rate be used today in diffrent applications? Most people probably do
not understand how versatile hear rate is.
The single most common use of HR is for calories. The prirmary functions of the heart and lungs is to supply the body with oxygen O2 and remove CO2. The stochiometric proportions between fuel burned and oxygen is refflected in the changing hear rate.
An important feature of heart rate is the variablity(HRV). As a rule variablity is largest at rest and then decreases with increasing heart rate. Polar uses this in the own-zone feature to extract a comfortable hear rate zone for training. This zone actually changes on a day to day basis and reacts to the persons general state. When you are more fitt you get a higher zone.
Another way heart rate variablity is used is in determing VO2max. VO2max is a mesure of fittness. This is actually a very nice feature. You just lay down on the bed and relax and a HR monitor will tell you have fitt you are.
Many deceases of the heart are visible in the features of the heart signal.
Chaotic dynamics is typical for a healthy heart. A sick heart beats regulary at rest.
Out of heart rate one can extract breathing breathing as it is modulated on top of HR.
With hear rate one can do an orthostatic test. A person lies down and stands up. Out of the response from the heart one can see if the person should train more, less or if he is overtrained or continue as before.
HRV can also be used in early syncop detection.
With heart rate one can also estimate lactate.
It would be interesting to look at HR variablity in e.g Nitrox divers to see if one could detect e.g. oxygene poisoning early. Maybe somebody reading can comment? I wouldn't be surprised if somebody is already looking into this. Many nitrox divers also suffer headaches and it would be truly interesting to look for possible correlations in the hear rate.
Heart rate is a very basic measurement of the human body that really can tell a lot of information about the health of a person.
Niclas
Polar - Listen to your body
30 years of innovation for every body.
Works for Polar and has opinions, but not a spokesperson.
My training is obviously not in exercise physiology, but there are several statements above that don't jibe with anything I know -- Orthostatic changes in pulse do not correlate with fitness, but are much more correlated with volume status and vascular tone. Heart rate is not a reasonable way to calculate caloric consumption unless several other variables are held constant -- It may be a reasonable way to assess relative caloric consumption in a given individual, during a single exercise session, as the intensity increases, but over time or between individuals, there are too many things that affect heart rate to say that you can know caloric consumption simply by measuring it.
And resting heart rate is no measure of fitness. Although it's true that very fit people tend to have low heart rates, they're also found in people taking some types of medications, and people with low thyroid levels. And in some people who just have low resting heart rates -- Mine tends to run in the 50's, and I am ANYTHING but fit.
Heart rate is one piece of information to use in the assessment of fitness and oxygen consumption. It is certainly plausible to think that increased tissue perfusion might result in some increased nitrogen absorption (and increased off-gassing as well) but given that most tissues are adequately perfused for their needs at baseline, it's not as though you're suddenly providing blood supply to unperfused or severely underperfused areas.
And resting heart rate is no measure of fitness. Although it's true that very fit people tend to have low heart rates, they're also found in people taking some types of medications, and people with low thyroid levels. And in some people who just have low resting heart rates -- Mine tends to run in the 50's, and I am ANYTHING but fit.
Heart rate is one piece of information to use in the assessment of fitness and oxygen consumption. It is certainly plausible to think that increased tissue perfusion might result in some increased nitrogen absorption (and increased off-gassing as well) but given that most tissues are adequately perfused for their needs at baseline, it's not as though you're suddenly providing blood supply to unperfused or severely underperfused areas.
Hi TSandM,
Did cut&paste with some basic ino. I have one friend that
is goes to Hawii and he has been using this test actively the last
years. This is used when you train intensively for some time.
I didn't say that the test is a fitness test.
=========================================
Based on baseline tests and regular long-term measurements of five HR parameters (2 at rest/RestHR, one during standing/PeakHR, and 2 while standing/StandHR)
2. HR measurement are interpreted with the previous results
3. Nine-scale (1-9) description of personal training status given to user : recovered (1), normal training state (2), training effect (3), steady training state (4), stagnant training state (5), hard training effect (6), overreaching (7), sympathetic overtraining (8), parasympathetic overtraining (9)
=====================
Orthostatic test is part of Polar Overtraining Test. Overtraining test consists of:
1. Resting supine measurement and
2. Orthostatic test.
Overtraining test analyses the effects of training in standard conditions. The analysis is based on the measurement of heart rate and heart rate variability.
Performing the Orthostatic test
Perform the Orthostatic test right after the resting supine measurement. Stand up and stay standing for at least 3 minutes. Following supine rest there is an immediate increase in heart rate due to standing up, and the HRpeak/shortest RR-interval is found approximately 15 seconds after standing up.
With continued standing heart rate starts to oscillate at a certain level i.e. HRstand.
Interpretation of the results
Previous Orthostatic test results are always the best reference for each person. It is important to follow the HRstand - HRsupine difference during a longer time period to see the possible changes in the baseline value. A distinct rise is a sign of overstrain or insufficient recovery from the previous exercise. For athletes, the difference between HRstand and HRsupine is normally about 15-30 bpm.
If you have possibility to record R-R -data (Polar S810/S810i, CS600 or Polar RS800), it's easy to find the true HRpeak/shortest RR-interval. If not, the true peak value can be lost. In any case, the best single variable in the Orthostatic test seems to be the HRstand and its difference from HRsupine.
HRpeak is usually interpreted to reflect parasympathetic nervous activity and HRstand sympathetic activity and they both are good indicators of disturbances in autonomic nervous system (e.g. overtraining).
Remember that to have comparable test results, you should always perform the test at the same time of day.
Hi TSandM,
Good questions and thank you for reading and asking
and for reading my bad english.
A persons resting heart rate (HRrest) is the lowest number of heart beats per minute (bpm) when fully relaxed and without distractions.
Age, fitness level, genetics, health status and gender affect the HRrest. HRrest is decreased as the result of cardiovascular conditioning.
A normal value for an adult is 60-80 bpm, but for top athletes it can be below 30 bpm. An exceptionally high HRrest can be a sign of over-exertion or illness.
The thing I was refering to was actually heart rate variablity(HRV).
If you study a sequence of heart beats you would find that the time
between the heart beats is not constant, but changes. Out of theese
changes you can calculate a kind of diffrent indexes to describe
the sequences(the heart is a chaotic oscillator). To make a long thing
short the interbeat timings are key to fitness.
If you compared your hearts timing to an athelets you would
notice that the athelt's heart beats much more stable.
So can I detect my HRV by measuing pulse from the hand? The answer is no.
The changes is in the order of milliseconds and you need
equipment to measure it.
Niclas
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