Hey Nemrod. Sound like you have a lot of diving experience. Fill out your user profile and let us know a bit about you. Thanks.Nemrod:
Hogarthian diving; the definition.
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All this talk on minimalism. Hogarthian doesn't mean "take only what you absolutely need to be able to breathe and swim underwater." Minimalism is a tenet of Hogarthian diving, sure, but it's not the end all and be all. IMO, it means "take only what you need to complete your dive safely, considering all reasonable problems." This includes making sure the gear you're using is fashioned and will function in precisely the way you want and is as problem-free as possible.
Absolute and complete minimalism at the cost of safety and robustness isn't Hogarthian, is it? We see these lines like "take only what you need" that are a condensed version of something complex, and people take the condensed version and reconstitute it into whatever form they want. It doesn't work that way.
Absolute and complete minimalism at the cost of safety and robustness isn't Hogarthian, is it? We see these lines like "take only what you need" that are a condensed version of something complex, and people take the condensed version and reconstitute it into whatever form they want. It doesn't work that way.
A combination of safety, minimilization and streamlining all sort of go together in the "Hogarthian" configuration.
The statement "take only what you need; if you need it take two" falls a bit short on the concept. A more accurate statement would be "take only what you need to accomplish the dive objectives. If losing it could hurt or kill you, take two." For example, on a night open water dive taking pictures, you only need to take one camera, but two lights.
Once the gear required has been defined, it needs to be arranged where it can be reached but doesn't dangle. Usually this means in the "triangle" of the chest, but can include along the back of the waist as well.
As for a long hose on non-penetration dives.... well, you definitely need a hose to connect first and second stages, and you need to route it to not flap in the current. Personally I choose a short hose for such dives, but a long hose works too and if I haven't had a chance to reconfigure, or if I'm diving a mixed bag of open water and overhead on a trip I'll just wear the long hose in open water too. No big deal.
Rick
PS - I still like diving my old 72/single hose Conshelf/mask & fins/no weights/no wetsuit/no SPG/no BC from time to time too. (yes, my buddy & I are comfy with buddy-breathing)
The statement "take only what you need; if you need it take two" falls a bit short on the concept. A more accurate statement would be "take only what you need to accomplish the dive objectives. If losing it could hurt or kill you, take two." For example, on a night open water dive taking pictures, you only need to take one camera, but two lights.
Once the gear required has been defined, it needs to be arranged where it can be reached but doesn't dangle. Usually this means in the "triangle" of the chest, but can include along the back of the waist as well.
As for a long hose on non-penetration dives.... well, you definitely need a hose to connect first and second stages, and you need to route it to not flap in the current. Personally I choose a short hose for such dives, but a long hose works too and if I haven't had a chance to reconfigure, or if I'm diving a mixed bag of open water and overhead on a trip I'll just wear the long hose in open water too. No big deal.
Rick
PS - I still like diving my old 72/single hose Conshelf/mask & fins/no weights/no wetsuit/no SPG/no BC from time to time too. (yes, my buddy & I are comfy with buddy-breathing)
OP
Capnsnott
Contributor
As you can see from post times, I only post during the day. So this may be a bit of backing things up.
If you calculate the air you need to properly ascend from 130' you will run out of your air in the "spareair" 9cf bottle I bet. I can't do it sitting here now for myself, my cheat sheets are at home. That's why most of us here won't touch them. It's a false sense of security, kinda like bringing a knife with you (for protection) in Bagdad to recover a blown up hummer. Trust me, I know you can't get away with that over there, I know a truck driver that recovers vehicles for the military (BTW, he said "Thank God they can't hit the broad side of a barn").
I have to say "N", you have a pretty good attitude in dealing with some of the comments. Bravo.
I do find this thread a good read. You guys have dove with equipment that I have only seen in "history books" LOL..... I wish you could post some pics.
If you are going to look into BP/wings, the Dive Rite seems to be the most cost effective. If you order the wing BP combo, the harness comes free.
If you calculate the air you need to properly ascend from 130' you will run out of your air in the "spareair" 9cf bottle I bet. I can't do it sitting here now for myself, my cheat sheets are at home. That's why most of us here won't touch them. It's a false sense of security, kinda like bringing a knife with you (for protection) in Bagdad to recover a blown up hummer. Trust me, I know you can't get away with that over there, I know a truck driver that recovers vehicles for the military (BTW, he said "Thank God they can't hit the broad side of a barn").
I have to say "N", you have a pretty good attitude in dealing with some of the comments. Bravo.
I do find this thread a good read. You guys have dove with equipment that I have only seen in "history books" LOL..... I wish you could post some pics.
If you are going to look into BP/wings, the Dive Rite seems to be the most cost effective. If you order the wing BP combo, the harness comes free.
Well, hope not to lead the thread to far astray but Dr. Frakenmule, you suggest the DiveRite with the BP. Is that a stainless plate? How does that work? I have several plastic backplate units. Will the DiveRite wings work with most backplates or does it require the stainless one? Why stainless over the plastic?
Oh, I did fill out my profile a bit more. I did not do a good job on it, sorry for that.
Oh, I guess you know you have gone to far with the minimal approch when you say--"dang, I sure wish I had my ------."
This is a scary story for which I am ashamed. It was circa 1985 and my wife and I went out on a cattle boat out of Ft Lauderdale for some drift diving. The dive master split the group up into three smaller groups and gave a tethered bouy and flag to each. He gave the tether to the strongest diver in each group. In my group that was me. Well, I had been training for marathons and was in excellent condition. I said, sure, I will drag it along and so I did. Well, the group including my wife kept stopping to look at this and that and even swimming against current some to sight see. Well, this entailed considerable effort on my part--but--one thing about being very fit is that sometimes you don't realize how much air you are consuming because you simply don't feel the burn a lesser fit person might (please--no comment--I am no longer this fit--in fact--I am downright unfit--lol). Well, I do remember checking my SPG and seeing 1000ish PSI. The next thing I remember is I breathed in and there was --NADA--ZIP--Nothing! We were at about 80 feet. On top of that, I was confused as to what was wrong--where was my air? AND, worse, the group had left me behind, even my wife was on the edge of visibility. I look at my SPG---ZERO PSI! By now I was beginning to think I was in some trouble having passed the point of an easy free ascent because I was dilly dalling around trying to figure out what was wrong--DUMMY--your flat out of air!!!!! I don't know, out of nowhere my wife appeared and gave me her reg. This was before octa units were widely used and required. Well we buddy breathed until I had replensihed my O2 debt and then I waved her goodby at about 60 feet and free ascended. The dive master was mad, I was mad, my wife was scared. It was really my fault, over confidence, superior fitness that also allowed my "body engine" to consume prodigous amount of O2 when it was working hard without feeling a burn or fatigue and plain out poor planning. Also it did not help that the group kept swimming off at tangents to the current rather than just riding it's direction. I learned a lot that day and those mistakes have never been repeated. N
Oh, I did fill out my profile a bit more. I did not do a good job on it, sorry for that.
Oh, I guess you know you have gone to far with the minimal approch when you say--"dang, I sure wish I had my ------."
This is a scary story for which I am ashamed. It was circa 1985 and my wife and I went out on a cattle boat out of Ft Lauderdale for some drift diving. The dive master split the group up into three smaller groups and gave a tethered bouy and flag to each. He gave the tether to the strongest diver in each group. In my group that was me. Well, I had been training for marathons and was in excellent condition. I said, sure, I will drag it along and so I did. Well, the group including my wife kept stopping to look at this and that and even swimming against current some to sight see. Well, this entailed considerable effort on my part--but--one thing about being very fit is that sometimes you don't realize how much air you are consuming because you simply don't feel the burn a lesser fit person might (please--no comment--I am no longer this fit--in fact--I am downright unfit--lol). Well, I do remember checking my SPG and seeing 1000ish PSI. The next thing I remember is I breathed in and there was --NADA--ZIP--Nothing! We were at about 80 feet. On top of that, I was confused as to what was wrong--where was my air? AND, worse, the group had left me behind, even my wife was on the edge of visibility. I look at my SPG---ZERO PSI! By now I was beginning to think I was in some trouble having passed the point of an easy free ascent because I was dilly dalling around trying to figure out what was wrong--DUMMY--your flat out of air!!!!! I don't know, out of nowhere my wife appeared and gave me her reg. This was before octa units were widely used and required. Well we buddy breathed until I had replensihed my O2 debt and then I waved her goodby at about 60 feet and free ascended. The dive master was mad, I was mad, my wife was scared. It was really my fault, over confidence, superior fitness that also allowed my "body engine" to consume prodigous amount of O2 when it was working hard without feeling a burn or fatigue and plain out poor planning. Also it did not help that the group kept swimming off at tangents to the current rather than just riding it's direction. I learned a lot that day and those mistakes have never been repeated. N
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Nemrod:
The biggest advantage of stainless over either plastic or aluminum is weight ... or more properly, negative buoyancy characteristic. It typically allows you to remove 5-6 lbs of ditchable weight, and puts that weight over your lungs, where it can counteract the buoyancy inherent in breathing.
For warm water, this is sometimes neither necessary nor desireable, so the type of plate you choose depends on the type of diving you can do.
As mentioned, the other option is an aluminum plate. Dive Rite makes both (I own both) ... and the aluminum plate is typically 2 lbs negative.
Many people out there make backplates ... both aluminum and stainless steel. There are differences in the type of steel used, the buoyancy characteristic of the plate, the size and shape of the plate. You should do a little homework before you purchase to assure you are getting one that suits your needs. Prices also vary ... stainless steel plates will run you from about $99 to about $189, depending on the type of plate you purchase. Aluminum plates are considerably cheaper, and typically run between $50 and $70.
Most commercially made plates follow a standard, which has mounting holes spaced 11 inches apart ... so you can use anyone's wing with anyone's plate. There are variances, but they are not common. Other things to look for ... multiple mounting holes let you move the wing up or down in relation to the plate, so you can use the wing placement to modify your trim. Some plates have cam band slots, so you can mount singles without a single-tank adapter (STA). Others do not. Personally, I prefer an STA even when the plate comes with the slots. Others do not ... personal preference.
Harnesses can either be the "standard" style, which is a single piece of webbing (purchase 12 feet or so when making one of these) ... or they can be a "custom" harness. The latter comes in many variants. Check out Deep Sea Supply's harness (they run a banner ad on this board that you can click to go there) ... or the Dive Rite TransPlate harness. There are other variants out there as well, but these two will give you some idea of the alternatives. The TransPlate harness works just like a standard BCD, with adjustment straps, quick-release buckles, and a sternum strap. Some people love 'em, others thing they're too complicated. Me ... I've used them and generally like them for certain types of diving, but have migrated to the simpler, standard harness for most of my diving. If you dive a lot, the cost of replacing the worn harness becomes a factor ($20 for the standard harness vs. $100+ for the TransPlate).
Wings ... there's a lot of info in here on wings. Basically, singles wings and doubles wings are built differently, and you should avoid wings that purport to be suitable for both. Yes, you can get away with it, but it's not ideal for either. Beyond that, I'd say look at some of the many existing discussions in the BCD forum.
Hope that helps ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
OP
Capnsnott
Contributor
Well,
Bob pretty much just wrote the book on back plates. Very fine job I might add.
I personally dive a stainless for just the reason Bob stated. I can loose 6# of lead. I have a Halcyon for singles, but am looking at a DiveRite for my doubles. I also dive in Colorado. I plan on doing ice dives this winter. The plastic plates would worry me up here. I could see hitting it aginst the back of my truck on a cold day and breaking it somehow..... Just paranoid I guess.
If you don't mind the extra lead, you can save a ton by getting the DR aluminum BP. An entire setup using aluminum from DR will run you about $330 for single setup.
I don't have my "DOOOOHHHH" dive yet (I hope never to) , I can see how you got to the OOA situation though. Multi tasking tends to make us brain fart when we least expect it. I hate pulling a float/flag, but up here it's the law on most lakes, we don't have the currents though. It sounds like it was a good thing your wife checked on you when she did.
Like Bob said, the wings built for doubles are going to be much wider and sticking a single tank on it will be a bummer to dive on. The wings wrap around the tank pretty bad and the adapters needed cause the tank to want to flop.
Greg
Bob pretty much just wrote the book on back plates. Very fine job I might add.
I personally dive a stainless for just the reason Bob stated. I can loose 6# of lead. I have a Halcyon for singles, but am looking at a DiveRite for my doubles. I also dive in Colorado. I plan on doing ice dives this winter. The plastic plates would worry me up here. I could see hitting it aginst the back of my truck on a cold day and breaking it somehow..... Just paranoid I guess.
If you don't mind the extra lead, you can save a ton by getting the DR aluminum BP. An entire setup using aluminum from DR will run you about $330 for single setup.
I don't have my "DOOOOHHHH" dive yet (I hope never to) , I can see how you got to the OOA situation though. Multi tasking tends to make us brain fart when we least expect it. I hate pulling a float/flag, but up here it's the law on most lakes, we don't have the currents though. It sounds like it was a good thing your wife checked on you when she did.
Like Bob said, the wings built for doubles are going to be much wider and sticking a single tank on it will be a bummer to dive on. The wings wrap around the tank pretty bad and the adapters needed cause the tank to want to flop.
Greg
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