how to dive with non-DIR divers?

[Carribeandiver]

I am certainly not a qualified DIR diver but I am working toward that end. I took GUE DIR F two weekends ago and discovered I am approximately 17 lightyears away in skill but I am practicing and trying to 'do it right'.
I discovered GUE, got my gear and enrolled/took the course all within a 7 day period. Before that, I had already enrolled and paid for a NAUI Rescue course that started last night (Mar 5).
Last night in class, I saw what my GUE instructor was talking about, those people do things unsafe and they dont even know it. One of the discussions was getting back on the boat with the famous 700 psi rule. I asked, well what is your sac rate? What is your buddy's sac rate? Using the rule of thirds is a good plan because it allows enough gas for you and your buddy to safely return.
I got scoffed at, ridiculed, called the master of overkill. These people not only didnt know what their sac was, they didnt even know what the term was. The course instructor talked about mistakes and how, because he is busy worrying about students, he has jumped in without his fins on, once without his weightbelt on, once without turning on his gas...blah, blah. I said, why not do a complete equipment check with your buddy before jumping in? That idea didnt go too well and was thought to be silly. Once again, I got called master of overkill.
Anyway, the point of my story is, I find myself adopting all those great safety rules, trying to apply DIR techniques and philisophies and yet I am so incompetent that I can barely spell DIR let alone do it. Just the same, I know I aint going back to my "happy go lucky, good thing I am ignorant style of diving". And now, I am going diving with these people in the pool twice and in the Gulf of Mexico for 3 days (6 dives) and I can already see problems. I am going to try and be horizontal all the time and they are going to be vertical. Ascent drills are going to be interesting with that pose. Now, I can see why DIR divers prefer not to dive with non-DIR divers.
I could go on but you all know what I am talking about.
So, how do DIR divers handle diving with non-DIR divers? What do you do when non-DIR divers do things differently?

 

[LIVES4SHARKS]

Well I am glad to see that I am in the same boat. I got my OW cert. about 6 weeks ago. I was really unhappy with the lack of training and I didn't know how bad it was until I began to be mentored by Perrone. He has been trained and is still taining under some pretty incredible people in the cave community. I was told by my OW instructors that buoyancy and trim come only with about 30 dives. But if you don't know what you are doing or not doing, I guess I will be a crappy diver with 30 dives under my belt. I will be diving for the first time in salt water with my dive shop, in Freeport next week. Since I now have been shown a different path, I see how truly unskilled at diving these people are. I can see myself horizontal and working on my trim while everyone is either kneeling are flailing through the water. I have already been scorned by the 7ft hose that is now attatched to me. But, I feel that my skills have improved where I might be able to get myself out of a sticky situation. I intend on continuing my education in many aspects of diving and I can see clearly how common sense gets thrown out the window at times in OW. I at least was rescued early! I feel like I am accomplishing so much more that I would have on my own! After watching a couple GUE guys in the water Saturday at Orange Grove, I am beyond amazed and astounded by the amount of skill they displayed in the water. If I can be half as good, I would have accomplished alot!

My advice to you about what you should do...just do what is most comfortable to you and find a dive buddy that wants to be safe a much as you! I refuse to change what I feel comfortable with, and I guess, on this trip, if I am not happy I am staying on the boat! Just remember, it's never bad to be too safe, preparation and awareness will make you an even better diver!
ONWARD, OUTWARD, AND INTO THE BLUE!

_CAROLYN

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

So, how do DIR divers handle diving with non-DIR divers? What do you do when non-DIR divers do things differently?

Here's my advice ...

Don't preach ... do. Set a good example. When people see how comfortable you look in the water some will want to emulate you. Work with those. Ignore the ones who just want to criticize ... you can't help them anyway. Let people make their mistakes, then if they want to talk about it, explain how to you avoid making them. Don't criticize ... it only makes people defensive. Talk to them about what works for YOU, and why it works. And most importantly, maintain a sense of humor ... people dive to have fun. Remember that, above all else, and people will be far more receptive to what you have to say.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[PerroneFord]

I've dragged poor Carolyn all over N. FL! When we went to Orange Grove, she was subjected to seeing a very popular GUE instructor and two of his friends in the water just below us before they went on a cavern dive.

I beleive one of the best elements of DIR is the strong emphasis on safety. The skills are nice, but the idea of safety is at the core of what DIR is. And I know for me, it's something I am just not willing to compromise on. I will refuse to dive if I feel conditions (including my buddy) are unsafe.

Carribeandiver, my opinion is that you do the things you were taught. Stop talking to those people who are uninterested in safety about how they can be more safe. Find safe divers to dive with. They are out there. Diving thirds in open water is probably too conservative unless you are in some very precarious circumstances. This should have been covered in your DIRF class. Diving halves, or something similar should have been discussed, as well as when it is appropriate to select what gas plan to use.

Nothing says you have to be perfectly horizontal to dive. You can break trim and still enjoy your diving. You can flutter kick. You can do any number of things. Just be safe and have fun!

 

[LAJim]

Some people I dive with used to give me grief about being on the DIR path until they figured out that my rate of improvement as a diver was about an order of magnitude greater than theirs. When your trim is near-perfect and your are doing great frog-kicking against a current and they are exhauasted from flutter kicking with bad trim - the flack stops, and they start listening on other matters like reg config.

 

[TSandM]

Caribbeandiver, we've all dealt with this.

First off, decide what you won't compromise on. It was hard for me at first, because I don't like being pushy, and when nobody around me did buddy checks, I just bewilderedly did my own and fretted. Nowadays, you dive with me, you do a dive plan and a head-to-toe equipment check. The only person who gets away without that is Bob, sometimes, because . . . well, because he's Bob

Before the dive, I talk to whoever I'm diving with and go over expectations -- signals, team positioning, gas plan and turn criteria. I try to be very clear about what I expect, although it doesn't always work.

I don't say anything to anybody about equipment configurations, unless I'm asked, or if I see something that's put together wrong or is going to cause a major problem. (I do say something about loose consoles, because a) they bug me and b) it's something you can do a quick fix on in the parking lot.) I also don't talk about trim, kicks or any of that unless I'm diving with a new diver who has asked for help (which is, honestly, most of the non-DIR diving I do these days).

When I took Rescue, I took a fair bit of grief about my equipment, and a lot of it was because I didn't KNOW how to do things like get an unresponsive diver easily out of a harness (except cutting it). My instructors didn't, either, so they thought the gear was stupid. It isn't, but you just have to know how to manage it.

One of the criticisms of DIR divers is that we're elitist, and we only dive with one another, and although I don't like the elitist label, there IS some truth to the accusation. The problem is that, once you get accustomed to diving with someone who keeps position, communicates well, and is just on the same wavelength (as well as not leaving a silt trail) you end up gravitating to diving with those people. But I'm not sure there's really anything wrong with that. We all develop social circles of compatible people, in diving as well as other areas of life, and as long as you're not carrying around an obnoxious sense of superiority, who cares who you dive with?

BTW, you may find this story funny: I did my Deep specialty after I took NW Grateful Diver's Gas Management seminar, which is basically the gas stuff from Fundies. The instructor was going on about checking your computer for no deco time, and paced out 120 feet on land so we could see how far it was. But he didn't say anything about gas reserves or planning, so I said something about the rock bottom for a 120 foot dive with the tanks I was using . . . and I got a blank stare. I didn't make myself at all popular with that!

 

[H2Andy]

Don't preach ... do. Set a good example.

yessir

whatever you do, do not tell them what they are doing is wrong or suggest ways to improve their diving

do your thing, dive your dives, and let your skills speak for themselves

if someone asks why you do something, explain it to them

you're there to dive and have fun, and so are they. keep that in mind.

if they're the sort of people who call you names, do you want to dive with them?

if you're the kind of person who keeps telling them how they're doing it wrong, will they want to dive with you?

 

[Carribeandiver]

yessir

whatever you do, do not tell them what they are doing is wrong or suggest ways to improve their diving well, since I know I am not competent, I do not mention what is right or wrong. however, when some things seemed insane, I did suggest a way to do it that would prevent a potential problem i.e. the equipment check with your buddy before diving in so there would be no jumping in without the fins or weightbelt.

do your thing, dive your dives, and let your skills speak for themselves that is exactly what I plan. although skills is a definite misnomer when it comes to me. But as I wrote earlier, I am NOT going back to the "happy go lucky, good thing I am ignorant" style of diving.

if someone asks why you do something, explain it to them That I can do, my talents lie not in performance but in knowledge from reading about everything thing I can get my hands on.

you're there to dive and have fun, and so are they. keep that in mind. good point, this may be a dive where I am not overwhelmed with frustration because I am not perfectly horizontal or my frog kicks are horrible or my back kicks make me go forward or,,,,

if they're the sort of people who call you names, do you want to dive with them? heck no, and that is the point of this thread. Even with no skill, I finid myself questioning whether I can dive with any of the people I used to dive with and look reluctantly upon those who dive the conventional "happy go lucky, good thing I am ignorant" style of diving.

if you're the kind of person who keeps telling them how they're doing it wrong, will they want to dive with you?

nah, that aint me. I may shake my head a few times or stare with amazement but I wont run around trying to act as if I know anything. If I ever get that notion, I only need to take a practice dive and humility hits me like a brick.

 

[thmoose51]

If you ever find yourself in a situation where a diver has an air problem and you donate your long hose you will be amazed at how much interest is generated when your fellow divers see the ease and comfort in the donation procedure. It happened with me in my openwater group and everyone in my group either already has or is planning on going to at least a five ft primary hose and bungeed octo. Hang in there!

 

[SparticleBrane]

Ironic that they wouldn't be doing safety checks...in a rescue class.