Clearly you have never attended a state school college class in the united states before
How to find an excellent SCUBA class
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Clearly you have never attended a state school college class in the united states before
I'm going with Japan-diver's comment about number of specialtiy C cards they have, I think a better question along those lines would be how many specialties they are certified to teach, and at what level can they teach them (only students, or can they teach to instructor level)
art.chick
Contributor
This is a very good thread. I safety-dive for a YMCA instructor (have been working on my assistant cert) for years now. One thing that I see over and over is students with a time frame. Not knowing the sport, the enter classes saying, "I have to have my C-card by May 1 because that is when my honeymoon starts." Or "My son and I would like to take a class, but we both have a lot of other sports and activities on our calendar now, so it can't take up much time." My instructor does not promise that he can hit those deadlines or accomodate spotty commitment. So he loses students to instructors who do. That is how least-common-denominator classes enter the race to the bottom. It is not reasonable to expect a new student to realize that "faster" and "More flexible" are not "better" in a sport this potentially dangerous and with so much physical and mental requirements. Some instructors are better salespeople than teachers, and newbies don't usually know what to ask. The above list is terrific, but they also mean that the student must be willing to accept that they may not have a C-card by the time their plane leaves for the Caymans or that their son can take off every other class for baseball and track meets. Thanks for creating this list, Walter. If every prospective student used it, the "industry" would quickly be forced into higher standards of safety.
Walter makes some accurate and interesting points. As an independent instructor I'm most often faced with those who are shopping on price alone, on the assumption that all shops/instructors/agencies are the same. I think it safe to state that for the beginning open water diver, he/she may not know the difference between the major agencies and in truth as far as basic certification goes they are all virtually universally accepted.
Small classes (in my opinion) are important. What is included in the price, i.e. books, rental gear, boat trips etc. Whether there is a strict schedule or more time available for those who need it. How is the academic portion taught, i.e. classroom, self-study, online or some combination thereof.
I personally promote small classes, scheduling flexibility, an academic approach to suit the client and I include rental gear but not boat dives since we have many options for open water dives in Southern California.
Small classes (in my opinion) are important. What is included in the price, i.e. books, rental gear, boat trips etc. Whether there is a strict schedule or more time available for those who need it. How is the academic portion taught, i.e. classroom, self-study, online or some combination thereof.
I personally promote small classes, scheduling flexibility, an academic approach to suit the client and I include rental gear but not boat dives since we have many options for open water dives in Southern California.
From my perspective as a new diver:
I did OW with a big dive shop training program. There was an instructor and an assistant for 7 students. They were both very personable and engaging, very experienced and knowledgeable. I did feel like I was pressured to buy gear from the shop, and I wish they had spent a little time on my weighting and buoyancy issues.
I did AOW with the same shop. There was an instructor and DM for 8 students, several of whom were very experienced divers taking the class for the certification pursuant to career objectives. There were no electives. We did nav and night one day, and then deep, wreck and underwater naturalist another day. The nav dive was a confidence builder for me, as I nailed the course. The other dives were just what I would call familiarization dives, kind of drive-bys.
I bought a regulator from an independent dive instructor and asked him about wreck diving. His prices are a little above the dive shop's, but I really got the sense that I would be learning some new skills and refining what I have picked up so far. He gave me very specific answers to my questions about what is involved. The big dive shop was pretty vague about it all, did not give me a real answer about class size, specific skills, etc. The independent class will be two of us and the instructor and I know exactly what we will be doing.
So, I have had initial training through a big dive shop's program, but I think I will be going the independent route for specialty courses. The independent's trip programs look good, too.
My noob $.02.
Jim T in San D
I did OW with a big dive shop training program. There was an instructor and an assistant for 7 students. They were both very personable and engaging, very experienced and knowledgeable. I did feel like I was pressured to buy gear from the shop, and I wish they had spent a little time on my weighting and buoyancy issues.
I did AOW with the same shop. There was an instructor and DM for 8 students, several of whom were very experienced divers taking the class for the certification pursuant to career objectives. There were no electives. We did nav and night one day, and then deep, wreck and underwater naturalist another day. The nav dive was a confidence builder for me, as I nailed the course. The other dives were just what I would call familiarization dives, kind of drive-bys.
I bought a regulator from an independent dive instructor and asked him about wreck diving. His prices are a little above the dive shop's, but I really got the sense that I would be learning some new skills and refining what I have picked up so far. He gave me very specific answers to my questions about what is involved. The big dive shop was pretty vague about it all, did not give me a real answer about class size, specific skills, etc. The independent class will be two of us and the instructor and I know exactly what we will be doing.
So, I have had initial training through a big dive shop's program, but I think I will be going the independent route for specialty courses. The independent's trip programs look good, too.
My noob $.02.
Jim T in San D
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I feel that too many people shop on price alone and I feel that is the wrong approach. When shopping for a quality class, while price pays a part in it, then main thing is what are you going to get out of it. I feel that there are 3 main aspects of picking a Quality Class.
1. Take the time and interview your instructor (what type of experience do they have? What are their philosophies. Basically, what are they bringing to the table?).
2. What's involved in the class(academics, pool, dives, skills)?
3. Ratios (student to instructor) Open Water we guarantee a 2 to 1 ratio. As far as Con-Ed Classes, depending on the class and skill level of the divers in it, we will adjust the ratio's but will never exceed 4 to 1. Not to boast, but not too many instructors apply this philosophy. I believe that there is safety in numbers and especially here in the North East.
Here are 2 other things to consider when Training with a shop:
1. The Dive Shop. When dealing with a shop, do they have a lot of inventory? Do they have a variety when it comes to gear? If the answer to this is NO then that shop is probably not too active and with experience comes a good selection and knowledge of gear choices (choices of Canister lights or BC's or Regulators). Usually with choices comes a more laid back approach to sales. When people come into are shop we give them options for the product they are inquiring about and in the end they choose which route to go. Do they cover the spectrum of classes? If the answer to these questions is NO, then IMO that shows a lack of experience. Instructors who further their education and knowledge often go on to teach it and by not offering the spectrum of classes, shows a lack of continuing their education as the sport has evolved.
2. Travel. For shops that are by the ocean, do they offer an active "Local" diving schedule. Local diving schedule helps in showing experience. Do they offer regular Travel as well, Bonaire, Cozumel, Truk Lagoon etc.. This also will help add to experience.
If you take the time and interview a couple of Shops/Instructors you will start to see a variety of responses and in the end you will go with what makes sense to you. Usually, the more well rounded the Shop/Instructor typically the training will be better because of experience. Although the class maybe more money or the distance far, I think that is only a small part in getting a Quality Education. Not to toot our on horn, but our average customer passes 2 to 3 dive centers to come to us.
1. Take the time and interview your instructor (what type of experience do they have? What are their philosophies. Basically, what are they bringing to the table?).
2. What's involved in the class(academics, pool, dives, skills)?
3. Ratios (student to instructor) Open Water we guarantee a 2 to 1 ratio. As far as Con-Ed Classes, depending on the class and skill level of the divers in it, we will adjust the ratio's but will never exceed 4 to 1. Not to boast, but not too many instructors apply this philosophy. I believe that there is safety in numbers and especially here in the North East.
Here are 2 other things to consider when Training with a shop:
1. The Dive Shop. When dealing with a shop, do they have a lot of inventory? Do they have a variety when it comes to gear? If the answer to this is NO then that shop is probably not too active and with experience comes a good selection and knowledge of gear choices (choices of Canister lights or BC's or Regulators). Usually with choices comes a more laid back approach to sales. When people come into are shop we give them options for the product they are inquiring about and in the end they choose which route to go. Do they cover the spectrum of classes? If the answer to these questions is NO, then IMO that shows a lack of experience. Instructors who further their education and knowledge often go on to teach it and by not offering the spectrum of classes, shows a lack of continuing their education as the sport has evolved.
2. Travel. For shops that are by the ocean, do they offer an active "Local" diving schedule. Local diving schedule helps in showing experience. Do they offer regular Travel as well, Bonaire, Cozumel, Truk Lagoon etc.. This also will help add to experience.
If you take the time and interview a couple of Shops/Instructors you will start to see a variety of responses and in the end you will go with what makes sense to you. Usually, the more well rounded the Shop/Instructor typically the training will be better because of experience. Although the class maybe more money or the distance far, I think that is only a small part in getting a Quality Education. Not to toot our on horn, but our average customer passes 2 to 3 dive centers to come to us.
As a DM candidate, I looked long & hard for my instructor - He is an indie but works through a local shop that I never used before & I am extremely pleased so far with both him & the shop.
My suggestion (& just my $.02) - if you are a new diver & the shop is giving you the equipment hard-sell before you are certified (or at least signed up & doing the classroom work), keep looking.
Ask to see the equipment you will be training with too - if it is old & ratty, I would also keep looking.
My suggestion (& just my $.02) - if you are a new diver & the shop is giving you the equipment hard-sell before you are certified (or at least signed up & doing the classroom work), keep looking.
Ask to see the equipment you will be training with too - if it is old & ratty, I would also keep looking.
frontiernurse
Contributor
How do you find the independent instructors with the smaller class sizes and lesser SELLSELLSELL motives?
OP
Check with local dive clubs, YMCAs, ask on ScubaBoard and write to agencies that encourage independent instructors.
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