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How would you handle this?

Discussion in 'Marine Life and Ecosystems' started by BCSGratefulDiver, Nov 1, 2012.

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  1. cruiser

    cruiser ScubaBoard Supporter ScubaBoard Supporter

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  2. lowviz

    lowviz Solo Diver ScubaBoard Supporter

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    Excellent observation. Yes, he is a diver. And his actions directly affect the dive community whether or not he feels that he is a part of the dive community. He is enjoying freedoms that the dive community fought for and strive to keep.

    He wasn't breaking any laws, right down to a valid permit to take.
    I presume most hunters see this situation just this simply.

    In contrast, non-hunters are expressing varying degrees of outrage at the lack of ethics and sensitivity exhibited while taking such an animal. So should the non-hunter portion of the dive community look into how he conducts himself in non-dive situations and then add this outrage to his diving behavior? -boulderjohn said it best. Yes, we can each judge his public uniform. However none of us can act against his legal diving activities other than expressing our displeasure. I find taking a GPO under the stated conditions to be shameful. However, anything more than expressing my opinion or attempting to change the law is also wrong.

    MBT could spend hours watching and photographing this magnificent creature then generously share his stunning pictures with a wider audience, as he often does, while someone else just wants the better parts of the same animal for their dinner. There is no chance of finding common ground here. Just an enormous dilemma.

    Close the site to harvesting octopus and you force a physical separation of the two sides. Imperfect, but it is something.
     
  3. BCSGratefulDiver

    BCSGratefulDiver Mental toss flycoon ScubaBoard Supporter

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    Someone sent me a link to an article last night. This is an excerpt ...

    “To Dylan – Son, you need to reconsider your manner of viewing life in general and hunting in particular. I’ve been diving for over 35 years, and hunting for at least that long. I’ve taken deer, elk and bear on land and plenty of lingcod and crab beneath the surface. I do not hunt octopuses, but my best friend does because he loves the meat. Son, a true hunter works for his success. He scouts and explores. He practices with his weapon so that his quarry will not suffer more than is necessary. He hunts “off the beaten path” so as to share the wonder of nature and makes proper use of any animal he takes. Ethical hunters do NOT go into the center of popular areas with the general public and commence to beat and maim any game animal before the horrified eyes of that public. You KNEW that Seacrest is a hugely popular dive site. You KNEW that it is treasured by thousands of divers all over the Pacific Northwest because it is a spot where they are most likely to see a Giant Pacific Octopus. You KNEW that it is a beloved and treasured location for those reasons, yet you chose to “hunt” there….I suspect that you did so simply because you knew that it would be easy. Son, hunting isn’t supposed to be easy….that would make it simply slaughter. There are many things that I suspect you did on the 31st but cannot prove. A true hunter is ethical – he treats animals with respect even as he stalks and kills. Please re-think how you do things in this world.”

    The article is thought-provoking and worth reading ...

    hunting in cove 2: it’s not about law; it’s about community | KnowWhereManNW

    The responsible people involved in this issue do not wish to demonize Dylan, or cause him harm. We do want him to understand why this action created the response that it did. He's an intelligent and articulate young man ... I think, despite the negativity, something good will come of it for him as well as for the rest of us ...

    ... Bob (Grateful Diver)
     
    LowDrag, shoredivr and danvolker like this.
  4. danvolker

    danvolker Dive Shop

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    I find it hard to imagine how you can be a diver, and not be familiar with an area being described as a "petting zoo", and for you not to know what that means.
    It does not mean divers pet or touch the marine life. You are familiar with the idea of a metaphor, right? We are discussing a dive site where sightseers and photographers go to see concentrated marine life of a spectacular nature, and where it is known by common sense that a diver hunting or killing any of this life, would be acting as a parasite to the entire community, and those choosing to act in such a way would be purposely making themselves into a pariah.
    At the Cove 2 site (from what I have heard), and at BHB, it is by a beach-dive anyone can walk into, and it is a "baby'dive", in terms of environment and challenge.

    Places like this that the public has embraced for this purpose, will evolve the support from the county and state to become full-fledged parks with full protections. In these 2 cases, the locals created the socially based protections, and the community has set these boundaries. The State will follow through in time, and of course it takes longer for government to address such a creation.

    Let's say this again..We are talking about places where there are very clear norms and values expressed by all that dive these places, and these norms are lived by and embraced by all. These are both shared with any newcomer, and quite obvious. Any "hunter" that goes to either place, has an absolute knowledge, that they are engaging in behavior that the entire social network of the dive community in the area considers to be taboo. This is almost like running over dogs with your car at a dog park, because there is no law against it. Try to imagine how a "person" could drive into a big meadow area with 5 dozen people there playing with their dogs, and then decide it s OK to purposely drive in a manner that it likely going to guarantee the car will run over one or more dogs ( this being the clear intent ), even if the driver wants to claim it as an "accident"...and then say he did nothing illegal, anyway, with a smirk.
     
  5. chrpai

    chrpai Great White

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    Just because someone draws a metaphor doesn't mean it fits.
     
  6. danvolker

    danvolker Dive Shop

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    I think 98% of divers that have experienced the Blue Heron Bridge marine park area would consider a "Petting Zoo" to be an ideal metaphor in explaining the need for protection to Non-Divers, or to "Hunters".
    Of course, "Real Hunters" don't hunt at swimming beaches, or novice dive sites. Similarly, "Real Hunters" don't set up their big hunting rifle with scope, and attempt to shoot deer in the backyards of people in a high end suburban home contiguous to a forest ( the hunters would know it is bad form to be shooting next to the houses...both from a safety standpoint, and from the behavioral standpoint, that people relaxing in their backyards should not have to be exposed to seeing deer shot in front of them....While some homeowners would not mind, I have never met a real hunter that would not realize that this would be wrong to do.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 5, 2012
    shoredivr, tracydr and Scott L like this.
  7. Rooster In Ohio

    Rooster In Ohio Angel Fish

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    Bob, I've read a number of your posts and blogs, have PMd you once or twice, and have immense respect for you as a diver and as a mentor to the diving community. I sense from your question and your post that you are either A. seeking a forum to publicly shame this diver, B. seeking support for the steps you have taken, or C. seeking advice on how to stop harvesting from this location. Implicit in your question and post is that you first approached this diver because you believed his actions were inappropriate. I suspect this young man sensed judgment in your engagement with him and responded as, sadly, many young men do, by taunting you and otherwise escalating a confrontation you initiated.

    It is difficult to respond as to how I would handle the situation. I grew up around the killing of animals for food and the eating of wild fish and game. I launched a boat from the Don Armini (sp?) boat ramp just down the street many times in the 70s and 80s, long before and during the infancy of the dive area to which you refer (that dinner boat was still there in my early memories). My view of diving this dive site and divers in general from my youth is one of a local resident who resented divers who took parking spaces reserved for the boat ramp and who unnecessarily exposed themselves when suiting up or down. I took the hunter safety course when I was 12 and have had a rifle in my hand since that day. So I grew up on the hunting side of the hunter/photographer divide and I didn't grow up diving so I don't have the wonderful breadth of experience and knowledge you have as a diver in general and as a PNW diver specifically. So, based on my outlook and lack of exposure to diving this particular site, I probably would have slapped him on the back and have tried to get an invitation to dinner.

    What I wouldn't have done is instigate what appears to me to be little more than social media bullying over a legal activity that you find objectionable at this site. Frankly, you are probably fortunate: I was once a 20 year old headstrong young Marine and I can easily see someone inviting you down to witness a platoon sized hunt in response to the pressure you brought to bear. If his activities are legal, who is anyone to castigate them?

    Having the benefit of distance from this situation, I see a different, win-win resolution that could have been had and might yet be had (although unlikely). This appears to be an opportunity to bring change through education and mentoring. The young man says he wants to become a rescue diver and seems to acknowledge that he could have handled the situation differently. You say you support hunting (just not there) and are clearly in a position to mentor this young man (it seems that he needs a positive role model based on his reported facebook postings). So, my answer to what you should have done (and what you might yet do) is to offer to show this young man a better way (and better place to hunt) and mentor his skills and appreciation for the world under the surface. I know I would give up chocolate and beer for a year for the chance to learn a fraction of what you could impart to this fellow.

    R/S,


    db
     
  8. danvolker

    danvolker Dive Shop

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    Had Bob walked away from the situation, had the social media ( big virtual coffee table with many divers talking about something) not gotten so many people upset, I doubt there would have been any reason for this kid to have decided he had done anything wrong----I think he would have been there day after day, enjoying his kills.
    Now, apparently, he has taken pause, and his family has taken pause. At least there is a chance that his future actions can become more inside social boundaries. I would also like to think, that the family will try to get him some help with the anti-social components he has been developing on FB..... All of this due to Bob.... I would say THANKS! to Bob, if I was the in the kid's family.
     
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  9. Rooster In Ohio

    Rooster In Ohio Angel Fish

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    I didn't suggest he walk away, but I did suggest that he engage in a more positive manner. Your response would suggest that anyone who found a legal activity in which you engage objectionable would be worthy of thanks for initiating social media pressure including photos of you, your vehicle, your license plate, contacting businesses you frequent, etc. I reject consequentialism as a life philosophy - something is either right or it is not. No matter what you, Bob, or anyone else may see as "social boundaries", this diver was within his legal boundaries. Taking the position that virtual shaming for legal activity that doesn't fit within your social vision is, in my opinion, a very dangerous position. I read the diver's response as being that he could have handled Bob's confrontation better (agree). I hope for your sake that you don't have feet of clay as I do and end up on the wrong end of someone's moral compas. We as a society outlawed the stocks a long time ago - I don't support their virtual reincarnation, even if it placates the masses this time.

    Respectfully,

    db
     
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  10. BCSGratefulDiver

    BCSGratefulDiver Mental toss flycoon ScubaBoard Supporter

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    The offer's on the table ... in time it might occur. But more likely is another fellow (and widely-known) diver who has made a similar offer to this young man. If he accepts that offer, he will most certainly become a better diver for it.

    I hope he does. From this point, we need to move in a positive direction both for his sake and that of the greater community ...

    ... Bob (Grateful Diver)
     
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