How would you handle this?

[MXGratefulDiver]

I am so glad to see that this situation is starting to move away from a Scuba Jerry Springer to something constructive and meaningful. These efforts may not generate as much audience as the mud-slinging but they will go a long way towards conservation of the octopus and other forms of marine life.

Those directly involved in this situation were never part of the Scuba Jerry Springer thing ... and this was never entirely about hunting. And those who are engaging in the Jerry Springer thing are not all doing damage to Dylan. Yahoo apparently ran a story about this yesterday, and for some reason saw fit to link my name directly to my email account. I have no reason why, except to continue stirring the flames and directing them my way. I received several threatening emails yesterday. That's OK ... I can deal with that ... for the most part these people are from the southeast to south central USA and aren't going to travel all the way to Seattle to act out their fantasies.

Someone did, however, manage to break into my email account, and responded to some of the emails in my inbox. I don't know what, if anything, else they did ... my internet provider is looking into that today.

Should I blame this on Dylan? After all, these people are reacting to his words, and acting on the assumption that they're supporting his cause.

No ... I don't think so. I'm a firm believer in holding people responsible for their actions. That includes myself.

You people are free to judge, and proclaim your judgments, as you see fit. Meanwhile, the people involved in this situation are acting in what we feel are the best interests of all involved ... and that includes Dylan. This isn't a game ... or an internet mental exercise ... for us. It's life. And when the silt settles, I think the whole diving community ... including Dylan ... will be stronger and better because of it.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[oldschoolto]

Saw it made the start page on YAHOO.... He came across as a very nice young man who legally took a legal octopus... His FACEBOOK page painted a very different one, A troubled young man with a very twisted idea of fun.... His reaction to Bob was that of a punk kid that gets-off on killing for the fun of killing...

I think Bob done good.... More people need to stand up for what THEY believe in....

Jim...

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

In S. Florida, octopus are considered a nuisance by recreational and commercial Stone Crab fisherman. Octopus frequently come up in crab traps and are always "harvested." I understand conservation groups in the pacific northwest are trying to restore abalone populations. I expect they would want to manage octopus populations.

The problem is that the laws currently on the books aren't addressing management. They haven't changed in more than 40 years, and the Puget Sound area is a far different place than it was back then. A long-term goal is to address the management issues, and the one you just mentioned was brought up in our meeting last night.

This isn't a simple issue, and no single "side" is going to win. We're not trying to push an agenda ... that's why we started out with the "two sides" concept, because that's the only way to arrive at a sustainable solution.

Management also doesn't mean killing something because it's natural prey happens to be a resource you want to make money off of either ... you have to look at the system as a whole. Because one thing we should have learned by now is that removing predators to accommodate one interest group usually has unintended consequences that ultimately harms not just the environment as a whole, but often the interest group who pressed for the action in the first place.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[danvolker]

You miss the point. The harm of his actions stop when he stops acting. Maybe he would have come back the next day, maybe not, but the harm was controllable because it stops when he does. There are socially responsible ways of stopping actions, which Bob didn't take at first.

It's like.. The difference between hitting someone, and injecting them with HIV infected blood. The harm of hitting someone (bruises, contusions, possibly fractures) is obviously worse than the harm of an injection (maybe a tiny amount of discomfort and some bleeding)... but you can stop the harm of hitting by stopping hitting. You can't stop the harm of an infected injection, and Bob can't stop the harm of his actions...he triggered something beyond his power to control. He doesn't know what will happen and neither do you. The fact that he is walking away from his first action, and doing what he should have done in the first place, doesn't stop the harm he caused from continuing...and it may continue for years. That is unacceptable and Bob deserves some anger for his actions.

The real problem is the behavior of the kid, with the extreme anti-social tendencies displayed. Had he been civil at this new place he was diving in, and attempted to be a good person, he would have had a nice chat with Bob, and none of this would have happened. Instead, he made threats, acted badly, and this led to the world seeing his FB pages and the background I would hope his parents are shocked at.

The kid needs help. Let's get this addressed.

---------- Post Merged at 12:12 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 11:51 AM ----------

In a related theme...many of us can remember back to when we turned 18, and began going to bars.....most of us will have never had problems or fights in the bars...but many of us will remember the kid that was always getting into fights, being thrown out of bars, and was missing teeth in short order, from a behavior tendency that would constantly provoke confrontations.

If you knew you had a kid like this, what could you do to help them? Is there a "scared straight" program for this kind of thing, or a special kind of therapist that can teach different coping mechanisms so that all the displaced aggression is channeled more appropriately, and maybe even remedied? I think it's time to stop complaining about something that already happened and won't be changed, and BEGIN planning on doing something that will help this kid, if you feel bad for the ordeal he is going through.

 

[Soakedlontra]

Those directly involved in this situation were never part of the Scuba Jerry Springer thing ... and this was never entirely about hunting. And those who are engaging in the Jerry Springer thing are not all doing damage to Dylan. Yahoo apparently ran a story about this yesterday, and for some reason saw fit to link my name directly to my email account. I have no reason why, except to continue stirring the flames and directing them my way. I received several threatening emails yesterday. That's OK ... I can deal with that ... for the most part these people are from the southeast to south central USA and aren't going to travel all the way to Seattle to act out their fantasies.

Someone did, however, manage to break into my email account, and responded to some of the emails in my inbox. I don't know what, if anything, else they did ... my internet provider is looking into that today.

Should I blame this on Dylan? After all, these people are reacting to his words, and acting on the assumption that they're supporting his cause.

No ... I don't think so. I'm a firm believer in holding people responsible for their actions. That includes myself.

You people are free to judge, and proclaim your judgments, as you see fit. Meanwhile, the people involved in this situation are acting in what we feel are the best interests of all involved ... and that includes Dylan. This isn't a game ... or an internet mental exercise ... for us. It's life. And when the silt settles, I think the whole diving community ... including Dylan ... will be stronger and better because of it.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Sorry to read that things are starting to get out of control. It is sad to notice that whenever there is a controversy some people have to respond under the pressure of their emotions rather then trying to evaluate all the facts with reason. (I wonder if what Yahoo did is legal....)

---------- Post Merged at 08:54 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 08:41 AM ----------

The problem is that the laws currently on the books aren't addressing management. They haven't changed in more than 40 years, and the Puget Sound area is a far different place than it was back then. A long-term goal is to address the management issues, and the one you just mentioned was brought up in our meeting last night.

This isn't a simple issue, and no single "side" is going to win. We're not trying to push an agenda ... that's why we started out with the "two sides" concept, because that's the only way to arrive at a sustainable solution.

Management also doesn't mean killing something because it's natural prey happens to be a resource you want to make money off of either ... you have to look at the system as a whole. Because one thing we should have learned by now is that removing predators to accommodate one interest group usually has unintended consequences that ultimately harms not just the environment as a whole, but often the interest group who pressed for the action in the first place.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I hope that the spark generated by this GPO saga will lead to a revision of the existing law on octopus fishing. From what I have read it does not make much sense to me that a diver can harvest one octopus a day all year round regardless of sex and age. If all the divers in WA did that it is very likely that the GPO population in the most accessible areas would be wiped out by now. In BC there is a GPO commercial fishery and I am curious to know how that is effecting the overall number of GPOs living in those waters.

---------- Post Merged at 09:09 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 08:41 AM ----------

The real problem is the behavior of the kid, with the extreme anti-social tendencies displayed. Had he been civil at this new place he was diving in, and attempted to be a good person, he would have had a nice chat with Bob, and none of this would have happened. Instead, he made threats, acted badly, and this led to the world seeing his FB pages and the background I would hope his parents are shocked at.

The kid needs help. Let's get this addressed.

---------- Post Merged at 12:12 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 11:51 AM ----------

In a related theme...many of us can remember back to when we turned 18, and began going to bars.....most of us will have never had problems or fights in the bars...but many of us will remember the kid that was always getting into fights, being thrown out of bars, and was missing teeth in short order, from a behavior tendency that would constantly provoke confrontations.

If you knew you had a kid like this, what could you do to help them? Is there a "scared straight" program for this kind of thing, or a special kind of therapist that can teach different coping mechanisms so that all the displaced aggression is channeled more appropriately, and maybe even remedied? I think it's time to stop complaining about something that already happened and won't be changed, and BEGIN planning on doing something that will help this kid, if you feel bad for the ordeal he is going through.

I am glad that I was not at Seacrest Park that day when Bob saw what he saw and thank god I am not on FB anymore so I cannot see what this diver has posted on his page. From what I have read here it seems to me that he is an attention seeker, an exhibitionist, somebody with a disturbing mindset. Not knowing him I am just guessing. Preventing him from getting air from local dives shops may end up doing more harm than good, alienating and isolating him even further. I hope he will go to the meeting with WDFW in Olympia.

 

[dtdiver]

[h=1]Enteroctopus dofleini[/h]according to a brief search, "not much information available about numbers as it is a solitary creature."

therefore we cannot assume it is reasonable to harvest as an unlimited source .

As for the hunter, I am not a forensic psychologist, but my common sense and knowledge of normal behavior says " there's something not right about that boy".

hopefully this will be a wake up call and get him some help for his anger/defiance/violence issues . He doesn't seem to have self-awareness nor a healthy home environment to create and reinforce boundary and societal norms.

Dave t

 

[Ana]

Those directly involved in this situation were never part of the Scuba Jerry Springer thing ... and this was never entirely about hunting. And those who are engaging in the Jerry Springer thing are not all doing damage to Dylan. Yahoo apparently ran a story about this yesterday, and for some reason saw fit to link my name directly to my email account. I have no reason why, except to continue stirring the flames and directing them my way. I received several threatening emails yesterday. That's OK ... I can deal with that ... for the most part these people are from the southeast to south central USA and aren't going to travel all the way to Seattle to act out their fantasies.

Someone did, however, manage to break into my email account, and responded to some of the emails in my inbox. I don't know what, if anything, else they did ... my internet provider is looking into that today.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Never mind who do you blame, do not dismiss this threads. This is no longer your handful of neighbors and local shops, I don't know what's the current count on the population, but even if only 0.01% is mad enough and feels threatened enough to act on those threads you are on the wrong side of that.
If it comes to Hunters vs Non-hunters (which I know is not YOUR stance) extremist hunters are as sensitive to their position as any extremist group. You more than anyone on this, saw how easy things spin into weird conclusions.
Do not dismiss any threat ...Take logical precautions.

 

[Them]

The real problem is the behavior of the kid, ...

You admit that? Let's talk about that admission.

Now, if you said the real problem was damage to an ecosystem, that would be reasonable.

If you said the real problem was the ethics of killing for entertainment, again you would have a position worth supporting.

If you said there was economic harm in killing animals that attract tourist, again you've got an argument.

If you say your complaint is based on ethical or legal issues regarding his method of taking the animal, again you have ground to stand on.

But that isn't you issue. Your issue is that a snot-nosed punk didn't kowtow to Bob. Everything else is just a strategy to get the kids in trouble, not for what he did but for how you feel.

 

[Flodad]

Never mind who do you blame, do not dismiss this threads. This is no longer your handful of neighbors and local shops, I don't know what's the current count on the population, but even if only 0.01% is mad enough and feels threatened enough to act on those threads you are on the wrong side of that.
If it comes to Hunters vs Non-hunters (which I know is not YOUR stance) extremist hunters are as sensitive to their position as any extremist group. You more than anyone on this, saw how easy things spin into weird conclusions.
Do not dismiss any threat ...Take logical precautions.

I hope you are noting that almost 99% of hunters are ethical and just darn good people and not lumping them all into an "extremist" category. Im a little sensative when folks talk about hunters and extremeist in the same sentenance. thanks

 

[danvolker]

You admit that? Let's talk about that admission.

Now, if you said the real problem was damage to an ecosystem, that would be reasonable.

If you said the real problem was the ethics of killing for entertainment, again you would have a position worth supporting.

If you said there was economic harm in killing animals that attract tourist, again you've got an argument.

If you say your complaint is based on ethical or legal issues regarding his method of taking the animal, again you have ground to stand on.

But that isn't you issue. Your issue is that a snot-nosed punk didn't kowtow to Bob. Everything else is just a strategy to get the kids in trouble, not for what he did but for how you feel.

Sorry for getting you geared up in your own agendas.... the problem behavior was :

1. Not caring to check on local customs before hunting.
2. Becoming combative and aggressive with an older guy just trying to explain what the local area was, and how it was being used by all the divers there.
3. The kid telling Bob he would be back daily to kill more female octopus or just octopus in general....because he can
4. All the horrifying insights he has offered on his own psyche, from his Face Book page. This shows serious behavioral problems that his parents and those who care about him, need to begin dealing with.

I would also suggest the parents look into his peer group, and see if maybe this is a contributing problem. I would be shocked to find that his peer group is not enjoying the same behaviors...if so, the family needs to help him get new friends.

---------- Post Merged at 02:30 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 02:28 PM ----------

I hope you are noting that almost 99% of hunters are ethical and just darn good people and not lumping them all into an "extremist" category. Im a little sensative when folks talk about hunters and extremeist in the same sentenance. thanks

I totally agree. I know many hunters, and every one I know would be horrified at what this kid has enjoyed putting out to the world.