AfterDark
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I like meat its very tasty and just gets better with A-1 ! ironically I don't like seafood!
Human rights to dolphins?
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The article indicates that having dolphins perform in shows would be banned under the new law. How is it that dolphins would have equal rights if they are denied the right to work as a performer?
Excellent point. I think we should give dolphins the choice to work and make a living. But those who choose not to, we should subsidize. We should also give them a cell phone and medical coverage. Of course, they'd not be required to pay taxes, because only humans are required to pay taxes...
KevWind
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This thread has brought up some very interesting and very complex issues along with number of commonly held myths being sighted as part of mix.
First I will disclose that I tend to fall into the group that thinks that no animals other than humans should be (legally) classified as having "all human" rights. But it is only because no other animal (that we are currently aware of) is actually fully capable of nor should they be expected to, understand the entire amalgam of and grant in total reciprocity in kind, those rights.
That said ...... I do think we as the alpha cognizant species, sorely need to rethink just about every aspect of how we view and treat animals. In light of current and continuing research, study and knowledge and new information that is being brought to life daily, that dispels significant portions of previous thinking. Thinking that did and still permeates much of the belief systems still commonly in play. Which is also reflected by a number of statements being offered in this thread as fact, that are by in large now, little more than culturally held myths.
Myth #1 Meat or more correctly animal flesh is a "necessary" part of the human diet. This is patently false. All objective studies in the last 10 to 20 years show that everything beneficial to human diet can be obtained through non meat items. Period. There are literally thousands of current studies confirming this, if one cares to research it. Meat is still prevalent because of tradition, profitability, personal desire and entrenched infrastructure, not because of necessity.
Simple common sense dictates if animal flesh were in fact a necessity, the Buddhists would have died out over two thousand years ago.
Myth #2 We know which species are self aware and not.
This "imaginary line of demarcation" is changing daily.
The truth is that most of the criteria perviously used to attempt to draw line demarcating the human animal from other animals is also fading and being dispelled on an ongoing daily basis.
Things like tool making, cognitive abilities in general , the supposed superior nature of cognitive based vs associative based learning and skill set ( predator vs prey) social and family and group structure, awareness of death etc. etc. etc.
Myth #3 We humans and only possibly a few other species are "self aware"
The truth is we really do not know the the exact level of self awareness or not, of most species.
Because we have convinced ourselves that we like the taste of and still eat flesh, we HOPE that the species we prey upon are somehow less self aware, but in truth it is guess work.
I am not trying to proffer a vegetarian only perspective, I still eat some fish. BUT I am saying We need be aware of exactly what we are doing and why when we take an animal life, we need to understand it is preference not necessity . We need to move into the 21 century in terms of knowledge belief systems and rhetoric, and quit clinging to and regurgitating 100 year old mythology.
First I will disclose that I tend to fall into the group that thinks that no animals other than humans should be (legally) classified as having "all human" rights. But it is only because no other animal (that we are currently aware of) is actually fully capable of nor should they be expected to, understand the entire amalgam of and grant in total reciprocity in kind, those rights.
That said ...... I do think we as the alpha cognizant species, sorely need to rethink just about every aspect of how we view and treat animals. In light of current and continuing research, study and knowledge and new information that is being brought to life daily, that dispels significant portions of previous thinking. Thinking that did and still permeates much of the belief systems still commonly in play. Which is also reflected by a number of statements being offered in this thread as fact, that are by in large now, little more than culturally held myths.
Myth #1 Meat or more correctly animal flesh is a "necessary" part of the human diet. This is patently false. All objective studies in the last 10 to 20 years show that everything beneficial to human diet can be obtained through non meat items. Period. There are literally thousands of current studies confirming this, if one cares to research it. Meat is still prevalent because of tradition, profitability, personal desire and entrenched infrastructure, not because of necessity.
Simple common sense dictates if animal flesh were in fact a necessity, the Buddhists would have died out over two thousand years ago.
Myth #2 We know which species are self aware and not.
This "imaginary line of demarcation" is changing daily.
The truth is that most of the criteria perviously used to attempt to draw line demarcating the human animal from other animals is also fading and being dispelled on an ongoing daily basis.
Things like tool making, cognitive abilities in general , the supposed superior nature of cognitive based vs associative based learning and skill set ( predator vs prey) social and family and group structure, awareness of death etc. etc. etc.
Myth #3 We humans and only possibly a few other species are "self aware"
The truth is we really do not know the the exact level of self awareness or not, of most species.
Because we have convinced ourselves that we like the taste of and still eat flesh, we HOPE that the species we prey upon are somehow less self aware, but in truth it is guess work.
I am not trying to proffer a vegetarian only perspective, I still eat some fish. BUT I am saying We need be aware of exactly what we are doing and why when we take an animal life, we need to understand it is preference not necessity . We need to move into the 21 century in terms of knowledge belief systems and rhetoric, and quit clinging to and regurgitating 100 year old mythology.
If it were discovered that whale and dolphin meat provided some magical nutritional benefit, I wonder if more people would lose the moral clarity they presently feel?
KevWind
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I realize your just being facetious. But to answer. Not me I know exactly why I still eat some fish and it has nothing to do with necessity or magic. And of course the detrimental effect of most red meat and fatty flesh has on humans is well documented. And any magical nutrition is most likely to be a plant product. Just sayin'
Many people believe that there may be micro-nutrients that can't easily be obtained from plant sources and vice versa (i.e., micro-nutrients that can't be easily obtained from animal sources). I agree that detrimental effects of red meat have been well documented. I limit my intake of red meat but do not entirely eliminate it. I try to eat a varied diet that includes meat, fish and plants because I believe science has not discovered all of the benefits and detriments of all foods. Sort of hedging my bets. I like your arguments in general, but you argue against Myth #1 by citing what you believe science has concluded while you argue against Myths #2-3 by pointing out what you believe science has not been able to conclude. I'm with you on the argument against Myths #2-3, but I think your vegetarian/pescatarian bias is showing in your Myth #1 argument. I don't have any data on the health of Buddhists versus those who supplement their diet with animal products.
I was being a bit facetious, but it's a legitimate question to ponder.
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I would also argue that olympic and pro athletes, standing to gain millions or hundreds of millions over their sports career, would be using a vegan diet if the SCIENCE indicated it was a better route. So far, this is not the case.
There might be 1 % of this population trying to be vegan and compete at a pro level.
Of course, performance at Olympic sports is NOT suggestive of the HEALTH effects of the diet..just the performance effects of a diet...
On the health side, the best research I have read to date, indicates that most chronic diseases in our culture, are more related to diet's with high sugar consumption--this being vastly more significant than the amount of red meat consumed....and that the heart conditions are actually the results of chronic inflammation from the actions of sugar globules that form on the lining of blood vessels, ( and also form on muslce and tendon, causing arthritic issues over time)--this being a process referred to as Advanced Glycation End Products.....
This has shown that when you remove all animal fat from a diet, many people will still have heart diseases--the old Heart Diet was a huge failure.....And it shows that when you remove ALL SUGAR and most carbs, going with a protein and fat diet, that the heart disease disappears.
I have also found that when I used to do an intense bike ride...say a solo time trial for 25 miles in under and hour.....and then ate a normal meal with plenty of rice or potato as carbs.....that I would be sore later that day, and in to the next day.....but now that I am something much more similar to an Atkins diet, with lots of protein ( beef) , and no sugar, almost no carbs ( even no vegetables for most meals), that I get NO soreness after these intense workouts, and my recovery is actually better for strength building.
Long term, when I reach the low body fat level I want for my cycling, and diving, I will go back to eating salads and some vegetables, but in small quantities so they can't be oxidized to quickly by my system, and then cause a spike in blood sugar...and the advanced glycation end products to form. Long term, I am well aware there are micro nutrients in the plants I need.....though NOTHING in potatoes, or rice, or bread, that ANY body needs !
There might be 1 % of this population trying to be vegan and compete at a pro level.
Of course, performance at Olympic sports is NOT suggestive of the HEALTH effects of the diet..just the performance effects of a diet...
On the health side, the best research I have read to date, indicates that most chronic diseases in our culture, are more related to diet's with high sugar consumption--this being vastly more significant than the amount of red meat consumed....and that the heart conditions are actually the results of chronic inflammation from the actions of sugar globules that form on the lining of blood vessels, ( and also form on muslce and tendon, causing arthritic issues over time)--this being a process referred to as Advanced Glycation End Products.....
This has shown that when you remove all animal fat from a diet, many people will still have heart diseases--the old Heart Diet was a huge failure.....And it shows that when you remove ALL SUGAR and most carbs, going with a protein and fat diet, that the heart disease disappears.
I have also found that when I used to do an intense bike ride...say a solo time trial for 25 miles in under and hour.....and then ate a normal meal with plenty of rice or potato as carbs.....that I would be sore later that day, and in to the next day.....but now that I am something much more similar to an Atkins diet, with lots of protein ( beef) , and no sugar, almost no carbs ( even no vegetables for most meals), that I get NO soreness after these intense workouts, and my recovery is actually better for strength building.
Long term, when I reach the low body fat level I want for my cycling, and diving, I will go back to eating salads and some vegetables, but in small quantities so they can't be oxidized to quickly by my system, and then cause a spike in blood sugar...and the advanced glycation end products to form. Long term, I am well aware there are micro nutrients in the plants I need.....though NOTHING in potatoes, or rice, or bread, that ANY body needs !
I would also argue that olympic and pro athletes, standing to gain millions or hundreds of millions over their sports career, would be using a vegan diet if the SCIENCE indicated it was a better route. So far, this is not the case.
There might be 1 % of this population trying to be vegan and compete at a pro level.
Of course, performance at Olympic sports is NOT suggestive of the HEALTH effects of the diet..just the performance effects of a diet...
On the health side, the best research I have read to date, indicates that most chronic diseases in our culture, are more related to diet's with high sugar consumption--this being vastly more significant than the amount of red meat consumed....and that the heart conditions are actually the results of chronic inflammation from the actions of sugar globules that form on the lining of blood vessels, ( and also form on muslce and tendon, causing arthritic issues over time)--this being a process referred to as Advanced Glycation End Products.....
This has shown that when you remove all animal fat from a diet, many people will still have heart diseases--the old Heart Diet was a huge failure.....And it shows that when you remove ALL SUGAR and most carbs, going with a protein and fat diet, that the heart disease disappears.
I have also found that when I used to do an intense bike ride...say a solo time trial for 25 miles in under and hour.....and then ate a normal meal with plenty of rice or potato as carbs.....that I would be sore later that day, and in to the next day.....but now that I am something much more similar to an Atkins diet, with lots of protein ( beef) , and no sugar, almost no carbs ( even no vegetables for most meals), that I get NO soreness after these intense workouts, and my recovery is actually better for strength building.
Long term, when I reach the low body fat level I want for my cycling, and diving, I will go back to eating salads and some vegetables, but in small quantities so they can't be oxidized to quickly by my system, and then cause a spike in blood sugar...and the advanced glycation end products to form. Long term, I am well aware there are micro nutrients in the plants I need.....though NOTHING in potatoes, or rice, or bread, that ANY body needs !
speaking of the Olympics, would dolphins be allowed to compete in the swimming events?
KevWind
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While it is certainly true that we do not know everything about anything, and we are all guilty of believing our view is the more correct. I don't see a particular conflict in sighting what science does know about and what it doesn't. Also I would surmise we have studied nutrition to a much greater extent than say animal awareness. But science is indeed full of anomalies and exceptions and at times contradictions.
As I also stated I was not advocating a strict vegetarian diet per se . Yes certain micro-nutrients are harder to find in plants (but not impossible) and with todays supplements is not the issue it would have been in the past. And no doubt the excessive refined sugars , fats and chemicals in packaged and processed foods, coupled which a shift to a more sedentary and arguably more stressed life styles are by far the biggest contributors to weight gain and associated health problems.
But for me personally the problem was cholesterol and plaque blockage not weight. Which now has been significantly reduced by stopping the eating of red meats, high fat sauces and condiments like mayo most dairy products except for some very specific yogurt and for sure exercise. As for the blockage it was bilateral carotid endarterectomies.
And honestly I believe more and more athletes are beginning to switch diets but that will remain to be seen and of course athletes are in fact exercising to an extent that makes them the exception rather than the rule or norm. But that brings up another question what happens to these athletes health long term?
As I also stated I was not advocating a strict vegetarian diet per se . Yes certain micro-nutrients are harder to find in plants (but not impossible) and with todays supplements is not the issue it would have been in the past. And no doubt the excessive refined sugars , fats and chemicals in packaged and processed foods, coupled which a shift to a more sedentary and arguably more stressed life styles are by far the biggest contributors to weight gain and associated health problems.
But for me personally the problem was cholesterol and plaque blockage not weight. Which now has been significantly reduced by stopping the eating of red meats, high fat sauces and condiments like mayo most dairy products except for some very specific yogurt and for sure exercise. As for the blockage it was bilateral carotid endarterectomies.
And honestly I believe more and more athletes are beginning to switch diets but that will remain to be seen and of course athletes are in fact exercising to an extent that makes them the exception rather than the rule or norm. But that brings up another question what happens to these athletes health long term?
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