If you could change one thing about dive training...

[boulderjohn]

In their first years of diving, a very high percentage of divers experience what I call "learned helplessness," a condition that belies the quality of their training. I know because I was an example.

When I went into my first "real world" diving experiences, I was pretty good on the basic OW skills. My OW instruction was admittedly spotty, but I did AOW immediately after that, and that instructor was great. I was a real whiz at planning and calculating dives with tables. I could set up my gear just fine. My first couple of years of diving were in Cozumel, and like everyone else, I handed my gear to the DM as I got on the boat, and he set it up for me as we went to the dive site. Then we did DM-led multi-level dives.

I learned on my very first dive there that the tables were worthless on dives like that. I bought a computer as soon as I got home. Of course, none of my instruction had even mentioned computers, so I was on my own to learn how to use it. I as pretty studious, but it still took me quite a while to get the true hang of it all. How to plan a day of diving with the computer was not in the manual, so I didn't know how to do that. If I had continued that kind of diving, I would not have had to learn how to plan anything. I could have just followed the DM and then recorded the results from my computer into my log book.

After a couple years of diving, I did my first dives in Florida, and on my first, we were almost to the dive site when I finally realized that the DM was not going to set my gear up for me. As I scrambled to get it done, it became obvious how much I had forgotten. Veterans watching me struggle would have shaken their heads in disgust. I was also on my own with the dives/ Where should I go? How long should I stay?

Looking at me struggle in those first dives in Florida, you might conclude that my OW and AOW instruction really sucked, but I was really just fine when I started my diving life. It was only after a couple years of learned helplessness that I became the wreck I was then.

 

[boulderjohn]

No, I don't claim to be an expert. I was actually disclaiming any expert knowledge, which is precisely why I included that information.

OK, I see that "Snorkeling" and "Skin Dive" are on PADI's required skills list for OW. But how much time is actually spent teaching these skills? I've seen the course schedule for '70s NAUI and YMCA courses and more time was spent on just snorkel and swimming skills than the entire time spent in CW for the average PADI/SSI course today.

The time spent on the skills is not specified. You might be right that more time was spent on that a half century ago. They also spent a lot more time breathing directly from a tank valve back then--they don't do it at all now. How will you convince people that spending a lot more time teaching snorkeling is vital to scuba instruction? I personally don't feel it is.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

So you've seen four classes, and that makes you an expert on the course standards? Skin Diving is the first of the Dive Flexible Skills, meaning it is up to the instructor when to teach those skills. They are part of the RSTC course standards, so all RSTC members must adhere to those standards.

Like you, my OW course did not include skin diving. That was because the confined water session was a grand total of 2 hours in a pool less than 5 feet deep. That was one of many standards violations in that course. The fact that an individual instructor violates standards does not mean the agency dropped the requirement.

Would you consider Mark Powell to be an expert? It was him posting soemwhere on FB about teaching freediving/snorking/skin diving (or whatever people want to call them) skills prior to placing students on scuba that got me to try it. The results were dramatic despite already teaching neutrally buoyant and trimmed. I discuss this is the 2nd post in my blog series on how I teach. Link in my signature.

Now as I've discussed with a PADI CD, there is a way to get around this limitation: interrupt the OW course and teach freediving and then resume. So anyone from any agency can do it.

 

[TMHeimer]

The time spent on the skills is not specified. You might be right that more time was spent on that a half century ago. They also spent a lot more time breathing directly from a tank valve back then--they don't do it at all now. How will you convince people that spending a lot more time teaching snorkeling is vital to scuba instruction? I personally don't feel it is.

Agree. Also, maybe I look at it from the point of view of someone who snorkeled since maybe age 7 (?), diving down to depths of maybe up to 15 feet & back up to blast clear the water out. I don't know how a lot of time could ever be spent teaching someone to do that. Having to spend much time on learning to snorkel properly to me means the student just isn't comfortable at all in water, perhaps can't swim properly and--- oh wait, maybe just sign up for OW course anyway because of an ad they saw.....

 

[Jake 10]

IMHO, four dives to complete OW is not enough. Compare the classes from 1980-1990 to today’s classes and probably 1/2 of the techniques and skills are not been taught today.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

IMHO, four dives to complete OW is not enough. Compare the classes from 1980-1990 to today’s classes and probably 1/2 of the techniques and skills are not been taught today.

What is your statement based on? Students placed on their knees, then yes I agree. It is my understanding that there are actually more skills taught today. Some things like buddy breathing and ditch n don have been removed.

 

[boulderjohn]

IMHO, four dives to complete OW is not enough. Compare the classes from 1980-1990 to today’s classes and probably 1/2 of the techniques and skills are not been taught today.

Interestingly enough, we had a thread from a few years ago on this very topic. Someone produced the PADI standards from 30 years ago, and we compared them to today's standards. Here are the results.

1. The only standard gone from 30 years ago was one regulator buddy breathing. It had been replaced by alternate air donation. All other requirements and exercises from 30 years ago are still in the standards today, and they are still part of the RSTC standards as well, meaning that about 99% of the new OW students around the world are in classes with all those same requirements from 30 years ago.

2. As for the PADI standards, we were able to identify about 15 required skills that were not part of the class 30 years ago. Students are required to do more skills today than they were required to do 30 years ago.

3. Some individual instructors then and now add their own particular flourishes to classes that were not part of the standards and may or may not be done today. Some of those additions are rarely taught today because people either questioned their value over time or they were determined to be too dangerous. Ripping masks off of students is an example of a practice that has almost entirely disappeared. It used to be common, but it was never an agency-required practice.

 

[TMHeimer]

Interestingly enough, we had a thread from a few years ago on this very topic. Someone produced the PADI standards from 30 years ago, and we compared them to today's standards. Here are the results.

1. The only standard gone from 30 years ago was one regulator buddy breathing. It had been replaced by alternate air donation. All other requirements and exercises from 30 years ago are still in the standards today, and they are still part of the RSTC standards as well, meaning that about 99% of the new OW students around the world are in classes with all those same requirements from 30 years ago.

2. As for the PADI standards, we were able to identify about 15 required skills that were not part of the class 30 years ago. Students are required to do more skills today than they were required to do 30 years ago.

3. Some individual instructors then and now add their own particular flourishes to classes that were not part of the standards and may or may not be done today. Some of those additions are rarely taught today because people either questioned their value over time or they were determined to be too dangerous. Ripping masks off of students is an example of a practice that has almost entirely disappeared. It used to be common, but it was never an agency-required practice.

You are obviously correct, as I know your expertise and history with PADI. Maybe Jake is thinking more about the reduced total time for an OW course that occurred decades before I got certified. The two weekend course seemed very condensed to me (number of skills in short number of pool hours). I've often posted that I'm glad I took it the old way -- same number of hours but spread over 3 weeks. I don't know if 4 OW checkout dives is too little. A couple of more couldn't hurt, though I think 4 were enough for me.

 

[boulderjohn]

You are obviously correct, as I know your expertise and history with PADI. Maybe Jake is thinking more about the reduced total time for an OW course that occurred decades before I got certified. The two weekend course seemed very condensed to me (number of skills in short number of pool hours). I've often posted that I'm glad I took it the old way -- same number of hours but spread over 3 weeks. I don't know if 4 OW checkout dives is too little. A couple of more couldn't hurt, though I think 4 were enough for me.

The process of proving the point is simple for those who say requirements have dropped since those days. Produce the requirements from those days and identify what has been dropped. Simple. I can look at my log book from a quarter century ago, which lists the requirements, and see that nothing has been dropped.

I just went to the Internet and found I could download the 1980 standards from a number of sites if I enrolled in the site, or I could buy it from sites like eBay for a few bucks. Since in logic the onus for proving the point is on the person who says something is true rather than the person who says it is not true, I will leave it those who say half the standards from then have been dropped to identify specifically which standards have been dropped.

 

[John C. Ratliff]

The time spent on the skills is not specified. You might be right that more time was spent on that a half century ago. They also spent a lot more time breathing directly from a tank valve back then--they don't do it at all now. How will you convince people that spending a lot more time teaching snorkeling is vital to scuba instruction? I personally don't feel it is.

How do you convince people that more time on snorkeling is vital to scuba instruction? Well, it goes along with feeling at ease in the water. It is not up to the students to decide what the course should contain. That is the agency’s job.

SeaRat