I'm the Pariah again

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Originally Posted by MikeMatt isn't an EMT, a police offer, and dive instructor or anybody else with training and working professionally every day dealing with emergencies. He's just a guy on a dive that suddenly took a turn and he's doing his best to cope and deal with it as he can.


He is also "Rescue Diver" certified with his 20 or so dives.
 
Matt,

Hook up with Jim Lapenta for a real rescue course. If you choose to do so, you will also begin to meet a wonderful group of local divers who are all competent and in this for fun.

You now have all the 'theoretical' pieces to survive vacation diving and you are smart enough to fit them together. No point in harassing you further.

-maybe see you on a boat, Dutch, or Willow some day...

lowviz.
 
He is also "Rescue Diver" certified with his 20 or so dives.

Obviously this demonstrates the problem with the current requirements in regard to PADI's required dive experience for AOW and Rescue. Training and Experience add up to ability. Too little of one can lesson the impact of the other.

I've voiced my opinion before that the rescue diver course should include a pre-requisite of 100 dives, AOW should require 50. Every diver needs time to dial in the basics of the new training he's gotten. Taking OW, doing 5 dives, doing AOW and doing 5 more dives and then taking Rescue doesn't benefit the diver when he's not had enough real experience to dial in basic and/just learned skills prior to going on to new ones.

As I said, Matt did the best he could, if an inexperienced diver can remember even half of what he should do in an emergency I think he's doing great! If there is blame to go around it belongs with the other diver who simply abandoned his buddy and returned to the boat and never mentioned a word to anybody that his dive buddy was missing.
 
Having 100 dives before rescue is asking for more dead and injured divers. Rescue skills need to be introduced from OW on and built upon with each successive course. SEI has rescue skills built into the OW class. Panicked diver at the surface, unconscious diver from depth, and rescue tow while stripping gear and getting the vic out of the water and onto shore, dock, or boat are standard. I add supporting a diver at the surface while helping them to ditch weights. The AOW class adds more and again I go above standards and add even more skills. What has been the result is more divers wanting to take the rescue class, having fun with it, and coming out prepared to use those skills.

Taking rescue skills out of the OW class has IMO contributed to the death of more than a few divers when their buddies had no idea how to help them, I cite two such instances in my presentation on the failure of the buddy system and looked at several more where the lack of rescue skills could be seen to have contributed to an accident. Rescue skills are as much about preventing accidents before they happen. A number of deaths likely could have been avoided if a divers buddy knew what to look for and how to address it. Using proper buddy procedures and not getting separated is a rescue skill. As is proper dive planning. All of which could be addressed in the OW class if an instructor had the freedom and will to do so.

And I recommend rescue before AOW given a chance to.
 
As I said, Matt did the best he could, if an inexperienced diver can remember even half of what he should do in an emergency I think he's doing great! If there is blame to go around it belongs with the other diver who simply abandoned his buddy and returned to the boat and never mentioned a word to anybody that his dive buddy was missing.
Mike,

Please explain how you inferred that from these statements - I seem to be missing something. Afaik nowhere does Matt state his buddy did/did not notify the crew on arriving back on the boat. One would assume that if they used a checklist - the Where's your buddy? question might have been asked by the DM or Captain at that time. Which would have greatly added to the Captain's anxiety level if the answer was "I don't know" or "I saw him swimming away the wrong direction so left him".
When I was back on the boat my buddy came up to me and asked me if I was okay. I said I was fine. He told me that when he signaled me with his noise maker, he saw me look around. He was holding onto a coral outcropping. But I didn't see him. Then he saw me swim off in the wrong direction, away from him. So he swam back to the boat.
Then my buddy said, "What I should have done is go to the surface to look for you instead of swimming back to the boat."

It's admittedly a fine point since either course of action seems to put the buddy at fault, but something I'm curious about as it changes the tone of part of the discussion.
 
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Thank-you, everyone, for your thoughtful replies.

If I had this to do over again, I would:
  1. Not lose my buddy in the first place. That was clearly my doing.
  2. Discuss lost buddy protocols before the dive. Clearly, not everyone follows the ones taught in the course.
  3. Give the okay sign immediately. I truly was not clear on whether the okay sign was appropriate, since my buddy was lost. Now I know.
  4. Submerge alone and swim back to the boat. This is diving without a buddy, but the current is much less 15 feet down, so I could have gotten back to the boat that way. I figured this was against the rules, so stayed on the surface. Couldn't make any progress against the current on the surface. But diving solo at 15 feet is no great risk, and I would have gotten back to the boat without having to be rescued.

When the captain made the okay sign and asked, "What does this mean?" I figured he was just trying to establish his dominance. Obviously I knew what it meant, so why was he asking? I really felt that, especially after he kept asking it over and over with raised voice, he was laying a trip on me. And I was having none of it. I don't think this means I lack social skills, but I understand there are some on this board who think this. I think it means I don't need to take crap from an alpha male who wants to establish his dominance over me so that he can be right.

When my buddy apologized, and I was still upset, I wanted to communicate to him that he wasn't the reason I was upset. So I almost said, "You didn't do anything wrong." But that was not true. He clearly had done something wrong. I didn't know what to say to accept his apology. The reason I looked upset at that point even after his apology is that I was extremely upset about the interaction with the captain. I was not upset with my buddy. In retrospect, I would have said something like, "Thank-you, I'm not upset with you." But I didn't, and that was not optimal, I admit.

When the captain apologized, it was totally insincere. That was not an apology that I would ever accept. When he said, "You and I are through," it was the truth. And it worked both ways. No apology after that meant anything. There was no way I was ever going to forgive him for attacking me, enlisting the aid of several others on the boat in attacking me, when all I'd done was the best I could to save my buddy.

I realize that several of the responders to my post agree with the captain's position, and I accept that. But after reading all the replies, and giving the situation a great deal of thought, more than anything I think I should be acknowledged for doing everything I could to save my buddy, with a little bit of correction on the meaning of the "okay" sign.

But you know, when I said (over and over again incidentally), on the boat that if I had given the okay sign what would have happened to my buddy, nobody (and there were several people chiming in) gave a response that in any way approached an adequate response to a diver trapped in the coral and running out of air. The consensus seems to have been that I should have swum back to the boat and told everybody my buddy was missing, which would have wasted time. And one person even said a lost diver is not an emergency. This is the main reason I didn't just accept everyone's assertion that I should have given the okay sign immediately. I didn't give the sign because I was afraid everyone would ignore me after that and my buddy would die.

And even after they made it very clear what the okay sign means (that I personally am okay), I still didn't think giving the okay sign was appropriate. The reason is that, if I had given the okay sign, my buddy would not have been rescued.

The reason I say that, having it to do all over again, I would give the okay sign immediately, is that I realize now that they could hear me, even from 100 yards away. So I could have given the okay sign, then communicated verbally the missing diver situation. But at the time, I did not know they could hear me. And, again, I did not know that the okay sign only meant that I personally am okay.

And isn't it interesting that, when someone wants to win an argument, he will insult you by saying you should have learned that in open water class? As several posters in this thread pointed out, that particular subtlety of the meaning of the okay sign is not made clear in open water class. But even if it had been, I don't think it's polite to insult people.

Here's a scenario, by the way, to illustrate my point: Let's say that I had found my buddy unconscious on the bottom, brought him up in the correct way, and begun administering rescue breaths while towing him back to the boat. Now, the captain comes to the railing and yells, "Are you okay?" What should I do? According to everything everybody is saying, I should give the okay sign. But then what happens? Do I trust that they can see that I'm rescuing somebody?

The point I'm making is that the idea that "I'm okay" means that I'm personally okay just doesn't quite work in every situation.

Here's another. I find my buddy, he's caught in the coral, I can't free him. I go to the surface, wave at the boat, "Are you okay?" What do I do, signal that I'm okay? I think not.

All in all, I wouldn't be having this identity crisis about how nice scuba divers are if it had gone a bit differently on the boat: Let's say when I got back on the boat, the captain had said, "We need to talk about what the okay sign means, dude. I asked whether you were okay, and you didn't give me the okay sign, even though you were okay." Then, after I explained why I didn't give the okay sign, he could have said, "Ah, I see why you didn't give the okay sign. But in the future, you need to give the okay sign in that situation, because otherwise I'm going to think you need rescuing." Then, after I asked about what would have happened to my buddy if I had said I was okay, he could have said, "Hm, I see your point. You were afraid that if you gave the okay sign, I would then turn my back and ignore you, thereby putting your buddy in danger. Well gee, I have to acknowledge you for caring for your buddy's welfare. But I could hear your voice across the water, so then you could have told me what was wrong, and I assure you I would not have turned my back. If your buddy had been lost, we would have then organized a search. Okay?" And I would have said okay, I'm sorry I didn't signal okay immediately.

But what he actually did was attack me, and that's where it all went south.

The cognitive behavioral reply is well taken. Right on, in fact. And as any cognitive behavioral psychologist would point out, I am in fact overgeneralizing this experience to my whole life.

For example, thinking that everybody on the boat ignored me because they thought I was a bad person is wrong, as 2 posters pointed out. They were avoiding me because, from their point of view, I was holding a grudge. They probably thought I didn't want to talk to anybody.

I really appreciate the replies from the posters who think I handled the situation appropriately, given my experience level.

And as usual, several posters think that I really am the pariah. But that's life on the Internet.
 
He did????

I thought he and his buddy lost each other. He kept his head, followed proper safety procedures, which was circling underwater for a minute, then he surfaced and waved at the boat for help. Then at that point Matt was faced with what everybody who is actually in a situation instead of reading from a book has to face and that is dealing with the unique circumstances that every incident will have and making decisions on the fly. Matt isn't an EMT, a police offer, and dive instructor or anybody else with training and working professionally every day dealing with emergencies. He's just a guy on a dive that suddenly took a turn and he's doing his best to cope and deal with it as he can.

Meanwhile, his douche bag dive buddy is sitting on the boat watching it all unfold, watching the captain hailing Mark, not opening his pussy mouth for an instant to step in and tell the captain, Marks probably looking for me, since we got separated and I like a A-hole just abandoned him, swam to the boat and never said a single solitary word about me losing my buddy to anybody while Mark for all I know was trapped underwater dying.

The only thing different you should have done Mark beside discussing more things with your instant buddy prior to the dive, was to stop that captain in the middle of his 'lesson' and explained to everyone on the boat, that your dive buddy abandoned you at the end of the dive and you were dealing with a lost buddy scenario the best you could and put the blame on your jerk of a dive buddy where it fully belongs. If the captain didn't like that you should have just told him to go do what he's paid to do, drive the boat and shut up.

What makes you think that Matt didn't freak? It sounds to me like he should have been rescued... It sounds to me like he's a freaker. It sounds like he maybe shouldn't be diving unsupervised, and quite possibly needs more confidence in himself, and in the fact that people aren't just going to drop dead on a 30' reef dive because they run out of air or lose their dive buddy.

If he was on my boat... I would have dispatched a swimmer, and/or possibly jumped in myself. If some dumbass (any dumbass that is) doesn't give me the "OK" sign, and doesn't LOOK OK. That means, "I'm in distress and I need help"

Maybe his buddy who got to the surface wondering, "where is that trainwreck of a dive buddy I was diving with?" and told the boat, "I couldn't find the guy, maybe someone with more experience should rescue him."

You don't know that. But you certainly have a mouth on you to blame everyone, and even use words like Jerk, douchebag, and A-hole. Really?? If you were like that on my boat, I'd leave you at the dock. I don't need jerk off customers who don't want to abide by the rules of the boat potentially ruining my captain's license because they can't follow simple instructions or have some holier than thou attitude, like, "well I'm the paying customer, and you're the help, so kiss my ass"
 
FPDocMatt:
"I really appreciate the replies from the posters who think I handled the situation appropriately, given my experience level.

And as usual, several posters think that I really am the pariah. But that's life on the Internet."



I think this part of Matts response says it all.........rather than learning from what ALL the posters said both positve and negative.
 
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When the captain made the okay sign and asked, "What does this mean?" I figured he was just trying to establish his dominance. Obviously I knew what it meant, so why was he asking? I really felt that, especially after he kept asking it over and over with raised voice, he was laying a trip on me. And I was having none of it. I don't think this means I lack social skills, but I understand there are some on this board who think this. I think it means I don't need to take crap from an alpha male who wants to establish his dominance over me so that he can be right.
This was a huge mistake on your part. Your buddy was already onboard, so the Captain and crew were now focused on your well-being. When you refused to give the OK signal it gave them more cause for concern. When you then refused to answer the Captain onboard, I can understand his becoming upset. It is a tough job being placed in charge of a number of people you don't know. When you are at sea, the Captain is the alpha male. He needs all onboard to answer his questions.
 
T
The reason I say that, having it to do all over again, I would give the okay sign immediately, is that I realize now that they could hear me, even from 100 yards away. So I could have given the okay sign, then communicated verbally the missing diver situation. But at the time, I did not know they could hear me.

I would have thought that, according to your original story, the fact that people were talking to you from the boat and responding to your questions would have give n you idea that they could hear you:
So I surfaced again, and waved at the boat again.

This time some people on the boat saw me, and the captain came to the railing, and yelled, "Are you okay?" At this point, I thought, If I say I'm okay, then he's just going to turn around and ignore me, and my buddy will die. Besides, I'm not okay if my buddy is missing. So I yelled, "Is Joe on the boat?" Then he yelled even more loudly, "Are you okay?" Now I could tell he was irritated. I yelled, "Is Joe on the boat?" Somebody said "Yes", so I gave the okay sign.
 

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