In-Water Recompression, Revisited

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Thanks, I know the theory,...

I had no doubt that you did but was writing more for other readers. I have a habit of using quotes as backdrops for continued exploration of a subject when it sometimes looks like readers are peering into a private exchange. I haven't really mastered leaving clues when a reply to a quote is deigned more for everyone else to read.
 
All the O2 hits I've seen have been in the chamber. I've never seen one in the water column. Re the O2 runs, the Navy eliminated that requirement some years ago with the rationale that individual vulnerability to O2 toxicity is highly variable.

Best regards,
DDM

Only one I've had has been in the chamber..mind you was very hungover/still a bit drunk when the whole exercise started... Annual POT(pressure oxygen tolerance test)failed. Had to do it again when sober..lol
 
Only one I've had has been in the chamber..mind you was very hungover/still a bit drunk when the whole exercise started... Annual POT(pressure oxygen tolerance test)failed. Had to do it again when sober..lol

I can't count how many times divers would come onboard for their 14-day shift and want a 20 minute ride at 60' on O2 for their hangover. It was good training for rookie divers that needed time running the chamber so most supers would give in when things were slow. There was a lot of down-time due to weather in the North Sea before they figured out that big purpose-build DSV (Diving Support Vessels) were more cost-effective than small (150-200') vessels of opportunity. [/sea story]
 
All the O2 hits I've seen have been in the chamber.

Were any OxTox convulsions on old-hands? Just looking for clues why our experiences are so different. Could it be that "most" chamber-experienced commercial/military divers know how to manage CO2 and perceive OxTox symptoms better? Not sure how it could be tested but wouldn't it be nice if it was that simple? Not talking about eliminating risk, just reducing.

I know there's lots of theories why immersion makes a difference in tolerance, but has anyone actually tested immersed divers in a super-relaxed deep-breathing state? Maybe we need some yoga training... it works wonders for the apniests. :coffee:
 
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Were any OxTox convulsions on old-hands? Just looking for clues why our experiences are so different. Could it be that "most" chamber-experienced commercial/military divers know how to manage CO2 and perceive OxTox symptoms better? Not sure how it could be tested but wouldn't it be nice if it was that simple? Not talking about eliminating risk, just reducing.

I know there's lots of theories why immersion makes a difference in tolerance, but has anyone actually tested immersed divers in a super-relaxed deep-breathing state? Maybe we need some yoga training... it works wonders for the apniests. :coffee:

Hello,

This is an important question and I suspect gets to the heart of why Gilliam thinks it is fine to go to 2.8ATA on oxygen underwater - because he has seen it done in a chamber many times without any problems. He is failing to appreciate the difference in risk between a subject at rest in a chamber and a diver underwater that you allude to.

The problem in the water is CO2, and unfortunately, the explanation is so deeply rooted in physiology that while experience may help, no one can avoid the increase in risk no matter how experienced they are.

Perhaps the best place to start is to explain why CO2 levels have a marked tendency to rise when we dive. CO2 is a by-product of oxygen metabolism and we breathe it out. The more gas you move in and out of the lungs the more CO2 you eliminate. Moreover, breathing is largely controlled by CO2 levels, so that if they start to rise, then you breathe more to get rid of it and keep the CO2 levels normal (obviously without thinking about it of course). This control system is extremely well calibrated for a human breathing air at 1 ATA: even if we go running and produce lots of CO2 the breathing will automatically increase enough to keep CO2 levels in the body normal.

This all changes underwater, primarily because an increase in the work of breathing. Work of breathing increases because the gas we are breathing is denser. Just achieving the same flow through the diver's airways takes more work, but then you add underwater breathing apparatus like a rebreather where the diver's effort has to move the gas through hoses, scrubber etc. Being immersed also causes changes in the lungs that increase the work of breathing.

This is where things get really interesting. We have a design flaw (well, at least from a divers perspective) and it affects some more than others, in that when the work of breathing increases many humans will tolerate a rise in CO2 levels rather than perform the extra breathing work required to keep the CO2 normal. This is especially so if you superimpose exercise on top of the increase in work of breathing. The normal CO2 control system becomes insensitive to rising CO2, and there is also evidence that breathing a very high inspired PO2 (as we do during IWR) also worsens this tendency.

The bottom line is that when underwater with a higher work of breathing and higher inspired PO2, we have a tendency to retain CO2 by not breathing enough, especially if we try to exercise at the same time. This is beautifully illustrated in the figure below from Gavin Anthony's presentation to the DAN Technical Diving Workshop. It shows end tidal CO2 levels (a measure of body CO2 levels) in a diver at 30m on nitrox during performance of intermittent low level exercise (the exercise periods and intensity are shown in the magenta bars). 75W is very low level exercise, probably akin to very gentle finning. The normal level of CO2 is about 5 kPa and the black dashed line at 8.5 kPa indicates a level that is highly dangerous from a CO2 perspective alone. Any rise in CO2 above 5 will increase the oxygen toxicity risk for the reasons explained below. You can see that every time the diver works the CO2 increases and I reiterate that 75 watts is hardly any work. This would not happen in a human exercising (even very hard) at the surface.

Density%20not%20limiting.jpg

OK, so why does increased CO2 increase the risk of cerebral oxygen toxicity?

That was very nicely illustrated by Lambertson and colleagues back in the 1950s. [1] The brain blood flow is very sensitive to CO2 levels. Blood flow normally washes the CO2 produced by the brain away, and if CO2 levels are high, that would normally mean there is not enough blood flow to get rid of the CO2 the brain is producing. Not surprisingly then, the blood vessels of the brain are calibrated to dilate and allow more blood flow if CO2 levels are high. Unfortunately when we are breathing a high PO2 and have high PO2 levels in the blood, this protective mechanism becomes our enemy. The cause of high CO2 in the brain during CO2 retention is not inadequate flow, but rather a failure of the lungs to remove enough CO2 from the blood. Nevertheless, the brain blood vessels don't "know" this and simple do what they are programmed to do when CO2 levels are high - they dilate. The resulting increases in blood flow allows a much bigger delivery of oxygen to the brain. The brain tissue oxygen pressure rises markedly just because the oxygen delivery is much faster, even though the pressure of oxygen inhaled stays the same.

This explains the marked difference in risk of oxygen toxicity between chamber exposure (less work of breathing increase, no immersion, no exercise), and in the water (more work of breathing, immersion and some inevitable degree of low level exercise). Unfortunately, no amount of experience helps with this. Indeed, there is some evidence that experience in diving promotes a tendency to CO2 retention, though the mechanism for this is uncertain.

Bringing this back to the present discussion, this mechanism helps explain why the risk of recompression when immersed breathing denser gas via an underwater breathing apparatus at very high inspired PO2s is so high. All of this is explained in detail in a review article David Doolette and I wrote for the American Physiological Society a few years ago. [2] I would be happy to send it to anyone interested (PM me).

Simon M

1. Lambertsen CJ, Kough RH, Cooper DY, Emmel GL, Loeschcke HH, Schmidt CF. Oxygen toxicity: Effects in man of oxygen inhalation at 1
and 3.5 atmospheres upon blood gas transport, cerebral circulation and cerebral metabolism. J Appl Physiol 1953;5:471-86.

2. Doolette DJ, Mitchell SJ. Hyperbaric conditions. Comprehensive Physiol. 2011;1:163-201.
 
I had no idea that the cause of increased risk of oxygen toxicity when submerged had been identified. Thanks!
 
I had no idea that the cause of increased risk of oxygen toxicity when submerged had been identified. Thanks!
Me either. I knew that people were likely to tox at shallower depths while diving than while in a chamber, but I thought the reason was still a mystery.
 
This all changes underwater, primarily because an increase in the work of breathing...

No debate. The issue I am wondering about is to what degree can other work (muscle exertion supporting body mass against gravity and breathing, mental activity & stress, etc.) be reduced to partially compensate for the added WOB (Work Of Breathing)? Converting that into joules is a questionable business and may/probably isn't reliably comparable anyway (as-in not that simple). Thermal stress is also a factor even in the warmest tropical water compared to lounging in a chamber, even if it is on deck in the Barents Sea.

All the testing I have seen relates to combat swimmers who undergo tremendously variable overall workloads, mental stress, and thermal stress... which makes sense since the world's navies are paying for it and don't expect their combat swimmers to be napping or bored. (levity not sarcasm). Their breathing rigs (primarily pure Oxygen rebreathers) also have higher WOB than the demand regulators on chamber BIBS masks -- which honestly aren’t very good except for the newish Amron 350M BIBS Masks.

An offsetting factor for the in-water OxTox studies that works against mere mortals (ie not SEALs), is our physical conditioning. My CO2 management and perhaps production/calorie (pick your unit) is less efficient.

... The bottom line is that when underwater with a higher work of breathing and higher inspired PO2, we have a tendency to retain CO2 by not breathing enough, especially if we try to exercise at the same time...

No question, but that may be trainable. It might also account for some of the discrepancy in my experience in commercial and diving and @Duke Dive Medicine's regarding observed convulsion.

Brainstorming here:
Picture a diver on O2 open circuit or on a powered (fan-assisted) rebreather in free-flow mode. The diver is horizontal in the water column, is warm and comfortable, tethered so they don’t float away or exert against any hydraulic forces, are intentionally breathing very deeply and slowly (like 4-5 breaths/minute between tidal capacity), and is as relaxed as an apniest before their breath-up. To a considerable extent, the same training/conditioning would be useful during decompression as well.

Everything you have discussed and I have learned, especially about OxTox testing methodology in the US and UK navies, leads me to believe that restrictions designed for combat swimmers is more conservative than necessary for a well-prepared IWR operation. It may not be a 2.8 ppO2, but I believe it could be closer to 2.8 than <2.0. Unfortunately, nobody with deep pockets cares enough to find out. You can buy a lot of chambers for the cost of a decent targeted human testing program.

Interesting conversation.
 
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No debate. The issue I am wondering about is to what degree can other work (muscle exertion supporting body mass against gravity and breathing, mental activity & stress, etc.) be reduced to partially compensate for the added WOB (Work Of Breathing)?

It is not so much a case of "compensating" for the work of breathing, but rather minimising (as much as is practicable) the combination of increased work of breathing with exercise when you are in the water. There are two approaches to this: reducing the work of breathing with good gas choice and equipment configuration, and minimising the amount of exercise you do (eg by using DPVs) - the latter may be what you meant.

No question, but that may be trainable. It might also account for some of the discrepancy in my experience in commercial and diving and @Duke Dive Medicine's regarding observed convulsion.

There is limited evidence that specific respiratory muscle training may reduce the tendency to retain CO2 during exercise underwater, but no group, no matter how well trained, can view themselves as "immune" to it. Indeed there is substantial variability between individuals (hence the term "CO2 retainer") and I have seen bad CO2 retainers among very highly trained (both in terms of fitness and diving skill) navy divers.

Picture a diver on O2 open circuit or on a powered (fan-assisted) rebreather in free-flow mode. The diver is horizontal in the water column, is warm and comfortable, tethered so they don’t float away or exert against any hydraulic forces, are intentionally breathing very deeply and slowly (like 4-5 breaths/minute between tidal capacity), and is as relaxed as an apniest before their breath-up.

Yes, that is a good formula, though I would not get too obsessed with having a very slow respiratory rate. Rate x tidal volume determines the respiratory minute volume, which in turn is what determines CO2 elimination. You do what to avoid shallow breathing because of dead space, but don't slow the rate too much (4 - 5 / min is quite slow).

Everything you have discussed and I have learned, especially about OxTox testing methodology in the US and UK navies, leads me to believe that restrictions designed for combat swimmers is more conservative than necessary for a well-prepared IWR operation. It may not be a 2.8 ppO2, but I believe it could be closer to 2.8 than <2.0.

I don't agree. There are hard data describing oxygen toxicity risk at the sort of pressures you are suggesting. I presented them in one of my first posts on this thread and they make for extremely scary reading. That is precisely why no Navies, even with all the resources they have at their disposal, would suggest IWR at those pressures.

You can buy a lot of chambers for the cost of a decent targeted human testing program.

You are never going to see a trial of IWR for serious DCS at different treatment depths (including 2.8ATA) in water no matter how much money you have. An IRB would be highly unlikely to let you do that to sick divers. It is just too dangerous. My best advice to you if you really want to treat at 2.8 ATA in the field is, as you say, to buy a chamber. Otherwise, we should work within the safety constraints agreed on by experts world wide and stay at 9m or less for IWR on oxygen.

Simon M
 
Hello,

The bottom line is that when underwater with a higher work of breathing and higher inspired PO2, we have a tendency to retain CO2 by not breathing enough, especially if we try to exercise at the same time. This is beautifully illustrated in the figure below from Gavin Anthony's presentation to the DAN Technical Diving Workshop. It shows end tidal CO2 levels (a measure of body CO2 levels) in a diver at 30m on nitrox during performance of intermittent low level exercise (the exercise periods and intensity are shown in the magenta bars). 75W is very low level exercise, probably akin to very gentle finning. The normal level of CO2 is about 5 kPa and the black dashed line at 8.5 kPa indicates a level that is highly dangerous from a CO2 perspective alone. Any rise in CO2 above 5 will increase the oxygen toxicity risk for the reasons explained below. You can see that every time the diver works the CO2 increases and I reiterate that 75 watts is hardly any work. This would not happen in a human exercising (even very hard) at the surface.

Simon - thank you for the well-written explanation and accompanying figure. charlie
 
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