Inflating DSMB from exhaled gas

[EireDiver606]

You said many people have had runaway ascents due to reels, ridiculously overstated.

Ok I’ll be honest that I don’t have proof or knowledge of this. What I do know is that my very experienced GUE instructor and another very experienced trainee instructor who has been diving for something like 55 years between them. They said that *one of* the reasons they teach spools instead of reels is because “many people have had runaway ascents with them”. I trust their knowledge and expertise so according to you, they are completely 100% wrong and they came all this way climbing up the diving with this misinformation. That’s not logical.

If they’re wrong, I don’t really care. I just don’t understand why you have to be so agressive.

Especially, you shouldn't try and pass it off your comments as gospel because you've taken one fundies course.

Here's a dirty little secret about fundies, it doesn't bestow upon you all the knowledge and experience of the entire scuba diving world, despite what many fundies students would like people to believe. You'd be hard pressed to find a real GUE (read that as done something beyond fundies) that will tell you that they knew everything after their fundies course, because they realized that they had a mountain more to learn.

I never stated that I know everything there is to know about diving. If you think I’m being arrogant, or ignorant or whatever else, text can be misinterpreted and have different meanings. Didn’t mean to come across that way if I did. I certainly do not have a big ego in real life, and keep my mouth shut most of the time, especially around mentors. I actually realised the opposite after fundies, despite what you think I think. After fundies, I realised that I literally know nothing compared to others about diving, and have a long long way to go before I know a little bit.

If you can't think of any reason why you would lock off your spool while holding a stop, you don't have enough experience to be commenting about why you shouldn't.

That was a mistake by me, I thought you said that you lock it off while ascending not on a stop.

I'd recommend that you reevaluate your position in the hierarchy of knowledge, and refrain from trying to make bold statements that are beyond the scope of your experience level. This is a habit, and it's not a great one when surrounded by the level of experience of some of the posters on this site.

I get it, you're proud you passed fundies (rec or tech pass?) and think that gives you some greater level of expertise, but you've seemingly also bought into the old GI3 idea that it's DIR or DIW, and come hell or high water you're going to tell everyone how they're doing it wrong, even if it's a topic you know absolutely nothing about (a rebreather thread comes to mind).... There's a metric boat load of experience on this site, realize that you are at the low end of the totem pole in the grand scheme of things and take the opportunity to learn from others instead of dismissing them out of some misguided inflated sense of self.

While we're at it, so that you know what experience I draw upon, I am a CCR/Cave/Technical diver, certified on multiple units, dive OC backmount, sidemount, and no-mount, with stages, scooters, and DPV's, and whose typical dive time runs on the order of 4-8 hours in everything from warm tropical calm waters to 1 degree black water with current and open water drifting decompression. I haven't done it all, but I've done a bit. And I am by far not the most experienced person on this site. Not by a mile. This isn't a "who's got the bigger dive boner" contest, but you need to understand the level of expertise of those people who are engaging in a debate.

I agree with you. I just want to learn more by posting here and reading threads. I’m so enthusiastic about diving and can’t go diving during the shool year and it’s quite frustrating. So because I can’t learn by diving at the moment, I’m trying to learn on the forum.

I apologise @JohnnyC if I sound arrogant or egotistic, I’m really not like that and it is not my intention. Its not about pride either, i think it would have been better to post with question marks at the end of my post.

Please don’t insult me personally, that’s just wrong, it’s a thread with a discussion not a heated personal argument. I didn’t insult you. Try to keep it civilized.

 

[boulderjohn]

Ok I’ll be honest that I don’t have proof or knowledge of this. What I do know is that my very experienced GUE instructor and another very experienced trainee instructor who has been diving for something like 55 years between them. They said that *one of* the reasons they teach spools instead of reels is because “many people have had runaway ascents with them”. I trust their knowledge and expertise so according to you, they are completely 100% wrong and they came all this way climbing up the diving with this misinformation. That’s not logical.

If they’re wrong, I don’t really care. I just don’t understand why you have to be so agressive.



I never stated that I know everything there is to know about diving. If you think I’m being arrogant, or ignorant or whatever else, text can be misinterpreted and have different meanings. Didn’t mean to come across that way if I did. I certainly do not have a big ego in real life, and keep my mouth shut most of the time, especially around mentors. I actually realised the opposite after fundies, despite what you think I think. After fundies, I realised that I literally know nothing compared to others about diving, and have a long long way to go before I know a little bit.


That was a mistake by me, I thought you said that you lock it off while ascending not on a stop.



I agree with you. I just want to learn more by posting here and reading threads. I’m so enthusiastic about diving and can’t go diving during the shool year and it’s quite frustrating. So because I can’t learn by diving at the moment, I’m trying to learn on the forum.

I apologise @JohnnyC if I sound arrogant or egotistic, I’m really not like that and it is not my intention. Its not about pride either, i think it would have been better to post with question marks at the end of my post.

Please don’t insult me personally, that’s just wrong, it’s a thread with a discussion not a heated personal argument. I didn’t insult you. Try to keep it civilized.

I am going to try to say this as objectively as possible.

If you are on ScubaBoard over many years, you will encounter many, many posts in which people describe this phenomenon: a relatively new diver takes a GUE/UTD/DIR course, becomes thoroughly enthusiastic about it all, and wants to spread the word throughout the diving world. A former frequent SB poster on diving matters used to say it was like a young man losing his virginity and then talking like he invented sex. It used to be a very common occurrence, but it has been happening less and less and less over the years.

Your posts do come across as the latest example.

True GUE/UTD/DIR practitioners hate it when that happens, because it perpetuates a bad reputation. When I was first learning technical diving in the DIR fashion, we were specifically warned not to do that.

Here is a little history to explain the problem, at least partly. DIR was created within a specific group within the cave diving community, and it was originally created for cave diving only. Then the people who were the leaders in that movement decided they should spread the gospel to the recreational diving community, and they assigned a specific person to lead that movement, a man named Dan Volker. If you do a search, you will find DIR sites that still have some of Dan's writings. In one famous essay, he told DIR divers how they should go about converting the masses in the recreational community. If they are ever "forced" by circumstances to dive with non-DIR divers, they should make use of that bad situation to show the other divers the errors of their ways. They should show why their gear setup was better. They should explain why their techniques were better.

One of the hallmarks of the DIR philosophy is standardization--everyone should use the same gear and do all procedures the same way. In his writings, Dan's favorite persuasive technique was to exaggerate to the greatest degree possible the advantages of the accepted practice and exaggerate to the greatest degree possible the disadvantages of the unaccepted practice. "You're gonna die!!!" became the cliché for that approach. Before I was a DIR diver myself, I was completely turned off by one ScubaBoard DIR proponent who said on multiple occasions that ALL traditionally placed alternate air sources drag in the silt and become clogged and unusable in an emergency, so no one has ever done a successful air share using a traditional alternate air source.

Dan continued that approach even after what some people called the "DIR wars." Before he was finally banned from ScubaBoard, Dan started to promote the use of heated vests under wetsuits. In his argument, he talked about the huge number of drysuit divers who die each year because they lose control of their air bubble and shoot to the surface upside down. I wrote to him privately and told him the absurdity of his argument was undercutting his credibility, and I told him that his "You're going to die!!!" argument strategy was something he should abandon. His response was that he thought that strategy worked just fine.

On ScubaBoard, then, there are a lot of people who went through the DIR wars and heard the "You're gonna die!!!" argument many times. Some people who were taught DIR, including me, recognized that there are different approaches to both dive gear and diving practices, and it is OK to choose something different if it makes sense to you. These people get a "here we go again" feeling when they see someone new coming along with those same old approaches.

 

[johndiver999]

Yes, in good conditions at Malin Head Donegal, Ireland. We were moving 4m (13ft) up and down while doing a stop. Didnt do it at 5m.

I’ve never been in those conditions.

 

[boulderjohn]

In his argument, he talked about the huge number of drysuit divers who die each year because they lose control of their air bubble and shoot to the surface upside down.

I probably should have mentioned this to help explain the reaction some people get to this. When Dan said that drysuit divers are dying all over the place because of their lack of ability to control their buoyancy, he said that was only true of people who were trained for drysuit by instructors in agencies other than GUE. If you were trained by a GUE instructor, then you were perfectly safe, but if your instructor was from a different agency, you were risking death every time you got in the water.

Believe me, when you are an instructor from another agency, that attitude gets very old.

 

[Johanan]

I observed John Chatterton using one of these air nozzles. Seemed very handy to me but I don't know how save they are.

 

[JohnnyC]

@EireDiver606 no, your instructors are not "wrong," you've just taken a small piece of information mentioned by them and extrapolated from it without understanding.

Your affirmations about the desire to learn and be open do not match your posting history. John gave you a good history lesson, I suggest you filter your previous posts through the framework that he has drawn attention to, and see how your posts are being construed. It is not just me who has observed this.

I'm not sure what I have said that is insulting. If you were insulted, I apologize.

 

[PfcAJ]

I observed John Chatterton using one of these air nozzles. Seemed very handy to me but I don't know how save they are.

I use one to fill my open bottom lift bag. Works fine.

It gets disconnected and clipped off when not in use though. I don’t trust that thing at all.

 

[PfcAJ]

Ok I’ll be honest that I don’t have proof or knowledge of this. What I do know is that my very experienced GUE instructor and another very experienced trainee instructor who has been diving for something like 55 years between them. They said that *one of* the reasons they teach spools instead of reels is because “many people have had runaway ascents with them”. I trust their knowledge and expertise so according to you, they are completely 100% wrong and they came all this way climbing up the diving with this misinformation. That’s not logical.

If they’re wrong, I don’t really care. I just don’t understand why you have to be so agressive.



I never stated that I know everything there is to know about diving. If you think I’m being arrogant, or ignorant or whatever else, text can be misinterpreted and have different meanings. Didn’t mean to come across that way if I did. I certainly do not have a big ego in real life, and keep my mouth shut most of the time, especially around mentors. I actually realised the opposite after fundies, despite what you think I think. After fundies, I realised that I literally know nothing compared to others about diving, and have a long long way to go before I know a little bit.


That was a mistake by me, I thought you said that you lock it off while ascending not on a stop.



I agree with you. I just want to learn more by posting here and reading threads. I’m so enthusiastic about diving and can’t go diving during the shool year and it’s quite frustrating. So because I can’t learn by diving at the moment, I’m trying to learn on the forum.

I apologise @JohnnyC if I sound arrogant or egotistic, I’m really not like that and it is not my intention. Its not about pride either, i think it would have been better to post with question marks at the end of my post.

Please don’t insult me personally, that’s just wrong, it’s a thread with a discussion not a heated personal argument. I didn’t insult you. Try to keep it civilized.

The recommendation for reels over spools and “runaway ascents” is because reels are a bit more apt to jam than a spool. It’s got nothing to do with a wave bouncing you up a foot on a shallow stop.

A spool ain’t gunna cut it when you’re shooting a bag from 240’.

“Because someone says so” is rarely a good reason to do something. You need to understand it.

 

[PfcAJ]

I am going to try to say this as objectively as possible.

If you are on ScubaBoard over many years, you will encounter many, many posts in which people describe this phenomenon: a relatively new diver takes a GUE/UTD/DIR course, becomes thoroughly enthusiastic about it all, and wants to spread the word throughout the diving world. A former frequent SB poster on diving matters used to say it was like a young man losing his virginity and then talking like he invented sex. It used to be a very common occurrence, but it has been happening less and less and less over the years.

Your posts do come across as the latest example.

True GUE/UTD/DIR practitioners hate it when that happens, because it perpetuates a bad reputation. When I was first learning technical diving in the DIR fashion, we were specifically warned not to do that.

Here is a little history to explain the problem, at least partly. DIR was created within a specific group within the cave diving community, and it was originally created for cave diving only. Then the people who were the leaders in that movement decided they should spread the gospel to the recreational diving community, and they assigned a specific person to lead that movement, a man named Dan Volker. If you do a search, you will find DIR sites that still have some of Dan's writings. In one famous essay, he told DIR divers how they should go about converting the masses in the recreational community. If they are ever "forced" by circumstances to dive with non-DIR divers, they should make use of that bad situation to show the other divers the errors of their ways. They should show why their gear setup was better. They should explain why their techniques were better.

One of the hallmarks of the DIR philosophy is standardization--everyone should use the same gear and do all procedures the same way. In his writings, Dan's favorite persuasive technique was to exaggerate to the greatest degree possible the advantages of the accepted practice and exaggerate to the greatest degree possible the disadvantages of the unaccepted practice. "You're gonna die!!!" became the cliché for that approach. Before I was a DIR diver myself, I was completely turned off by one ScubaBoard DIR proponent who said on multiple occasions that ALL traditionally placed alternate air sources drag in the silt and become clogged and unusable in an emergency, so no one has ever done a successful air share using a traditional alternate air source.

Dan continued that approach even after what some people called the "DIR wars." Before he was finally banned from ScubaBoard, Dan started to promote the use of heated vests under wetsuits. In his argument, he talked about the huge number of drysuit divers who die each year because they lose control of their air bubble and shoot to the surface upside down. I wrote to him privately and told him the absurdity of his argument was undercutting his credibility, and I told him that his "You're going to die!!!" argument strategy was something he should abandon. His response was that he thought that strategy worked just fine.

On ScubaBoard, then, there are a lot of people who went through the DIR wars and heard the "You're gonna die!!!" argument many times. Some people who were taught DIR, including me, recognized that there are different approaches to both dive gear and diving practices, and it is OK to choose something different if it makes sense to you. These people get a "here we go again" feeling when they see someone new coming along with those same old approaches.

In the interest of historical completeness, Irvine, Mee, Jablonski, Volker, and many others that were around during the genesis of DIR were avid wreck divers. Stating that it was “for cavers by cavers” isn’t really accurate.

 

[boulderjohn]

In the interest of historical completeness, Irvine, Mee, Jablonski, Volker, and many others that were around during the genesis of DIR were avid wreck divers. Stating that it was “for cavers by cavers” isn’t really accurate.

You're probably right. I was essentially quoting Dan Volker on that, so I should have referenced the source.

The context was a ScubaBoard discussion in which Dan--the man who by his own description had been put in charge of getting the DIR message to the recreational masses--said that a lot of the DIR ideals were really not that appropriate for recreational diving because they were created for cave diving. It was memorable because I wrote to him privately about that inherent contradiction--if some of the ideals were not appropriate for the recreational community, why the urgency in getting that community to adopt them?