Initial Certification

[William J. Gargan]

Hello there;
I am planning to get my SCUBA certification soon. There are several organizations I.E., PADI, NAUI, SSI, etc. What is the difference to an individual like me? What would be the best training?

Thanks, Bill

 

[King_Neptune]

William,

You have asked the mother of all questions, and one that can get a very loaded or heated debate going. Many people believe as strongly about COMPANY A as others feel about COMPANY B. When I personally look at them they all have things I really like and equally things I don't like. What it really boils down to is finding the one that's right for you.

A more important question than "Which Agency" is "Which Instructor". All certification agencies in the US meet the same minimum standard for entry-level certification. Many instructors hold cards from several agencies. The bottom line is really the Instructor not so much the agency for your initial certification. There are good Instructors and bad Instructors. Ask questions and feel comfortable.

Here are what is considered to be the Top 3 agencies and here is a list of All Known Certifying Organizations and Diver Associations.
I hope this helps, and if there is anything else I can help you with let me know.
=-)

 

[Pinny]

Hi Bill,
King Naptune was right by saying, "you've asked the mother of all questions". You'll meet NAUI divers who "hate" PADI, and vice versa, some will say one is better then the other. But with any training agency you'll choose, you're most likely to learn the same things. It really depends on the instructor or few different instructors that will train and teach you about diving.
Go to few dive shops, and ask some questions, meet the instructors, and if you know anyone who took the course someplace, get their opinion. You should also consider in what length of time you want to complete your confined water and lectures. Many places offer 1-2 weekends or once to twice a week from 2-6 weeks. You may also want to choose private pool sessions, just you and an instructor. So I can't recommend one agency or the other, just choose a place that you'll be comfortable with and an instructor that you like (if you can). But definitely go and get certified, diving is one of the most exciting things you'll ever do.
Just remember always be a safe diver, and keep our reefs alive by not touching anything under water.

 

[vr]

Bill,

The best coverage of this subject that I've found is on Diverlink in their New Diver section (http://diverlink.com/newdiver ) What many people overlook in their simplistic (though true) "the instructor is most important" response is that the instructor's training is important and relevant to how well they (the student) will be taught. After all, like they say, if we're looking for a doctor or lawyer, don't we want one who was taught at the best schools, with the highest standards?

We trust scuba instructors with our life support training. Shouldn't we look for the best there also?

Contrary to what some people say, there are very real differences in the standards among various agencies. At the high end, you have the YMCA. At the low end, you have PADI and some others. There is a very big difference between the two ends. Some people will seek to minimize that difference by saying "all agencies have minimum standards in common". That means about as much as saying all divers have going into the water in common, and they are all about the same because of it.

I would suggest you read the several articles on Diverlink. However, if you want a short answer, I would say seek a YMCA class.

 

[King_Neptune]

Hello vr,

I have some real problems with the way you left that last post. I hope that you do not take this as a flame but more of a constructive criticism. Lets think about your post and in fairness to you I'll use the link you provided as some common ground for which I agree is a great resource.

In the last sentence of that page before the disclaimer let me re-quote it first: "There is no place in safe diving for inflated egos regardless of one's level of training". First of all implying that the thinking "the instructor is most important" is by any means "simplistic" is false and misleading. There is nothing simplistic about it. It is a very involved and time and thought provoking process. I have been cross trained through PADI, NAUI and YMCA. It also just so happens that the most respected instructors I have trained through are in the same order as above as to how well I felt they conducted their class and the professionalism they used. I know now that I had a "bad apple" but the last thing I would have called the YMCA instructor is "High End". On the same note I have worked with others that I would call "High End". The same holds true with all the agencies.

I personally reserve telling others what certification level I hold and what Cert companies I have them under until I hear who and what they feel is the "best" and their reasons for thinking so. I just love when I hear people slamming on one of the 3 and then I will purposefully only mention that I am certified through them and they all trip out because many people know I have logged many 1000's of hours diving, my military history diving, at depths of over 500+ feet and have served many weeks in a decompression chamber at that.

One of the biggest downfalls and one of the many reasons this Industry suffers so badly the way it does is based on its "elitist" and "Bold Diver" attitude. I still hold firm to my statement that the instructor makes the class not the agency, for just as that article pointed out many of them are crossed trained and actually care about their students.

Trying to tell someone that the agency is more important is dangerous and cocky and I personally would never want the responsibility on my shoulders of knowing that someone got seriously hurt because they got a "bad apple" instructor.

Just because I had a bad experience with a YMCA instructor does not stop me from recommending them, as I have known many of them that I consider the best of the best. I've also come across good and bad Instructors from the other agencies as well. Personally my ultimate suggestion would be to become cross trained under many of them as you can never know to much!
Before I would EVER say "Go with this ONE" I would say "Go with them all"!

I've been diving for a long time and have divemastered many a class for Instructors of many different agencies. As much as I agree with that article at diverlink I disagree with the way you made your blanket statement.

Our Cert agency(-y +ies) should not be how we judge each other but rather our experience, knowledge and professionalism both while in and out of the water. We all need to better ourselves so we can be a better BUDDY!

=-)

 

[vr]

You should read it again because some of your conclusions are misinterpretations and run contrary to what I said. It is simplistic to simply say the intructor is the most important part. You will note I also said it is true.

The training an instructor receives is a factor in how good an instructor they are. Considering that some agencies prohibit material that others require, the agency they represent IS an issue in how good they might be, like it or not.

As Diverlink notes, we place a higher value on physicians from institutes like John Hopkins, lawyers from Harvard, and others, than those from the local community college. Obviously, their education is a factor in how good we think they are.

To think that the same is not true for people who instruct us and prepare us for life support situations is simplistic and misleading.

I'm not saying to choose an instructor solely on the basis of the agency they represent and received their training from, just that it is an important factor in evaluating any instructor.

 

[King_Neptune]

vr,

Agreed, it is a factor, but a single factor, not the main or or most important though. Maybe we will just have to agree to disagree but I just see too much that can possibly go wrong with thinking its an "important factor". Why? Because then who are you to listen to and who are you to believe?
There are many arguments and many pro's and con's of each to wade through especially for someone who isnt even certified yet.

Getting into the "Name brand" game can be just as dangerous and jumping in blindly.

=-)

 

[old_mike]

uh oh! incoming! i'd better duck!

i think a lot of it also depends on the SCUBA student. You can take college students who placed into UCLA fresh out of high school and students who had to serve time at the community colleges as an example: we get whiners and complainers who drop out no matter who the instructor is, which institution they are attending, no matter how good the audio-visual tutorials or textbooks are or how mediocre the instructors or materials may be. Some students start from the half-way house (literally!) and make it to the phD program at UCLA or USC (my marine bio prof had dyslexia! but he still earned his doctorate in biology!!!!). Others may be born with a silver spoon and get an all-expense paid trip to Harvard or wherever and then flunk out after 10 months. Some SCUBA students may have the lousiest instructors with the lousiest agencies but they may stick with it, realize the deficit in their training, visit chat rooms like this one with their questions, dive a lot, and end up as superior divers. Others get certified with great instructors and end up diving only once every 2 years and nearly killing themnselves and their buddies every time.

my instructor by the way, was a hard-ass ex-marine who wouldn't let me into the ocean until i'd passed my swim test to NAUI specs with no cheating allowed whatsoever! I'd recommend the guy in a heartbeat!

 

[vr]

You're right, Mike. I remember a saying from my Boy Scouting days. "No matter how stony the path, some will forge ahead. Mo matter how easy the path, some will lag behind."

However, that saying and your statement address people at opposite ends of ability and ambition. For all those in the middle, the quality of instruction is one of the factors that matters a great deal in how well prepared they will be.

The onus is on the instructor to teach a proper class, not for the student to make up for the instructor's deficiencies. Some have to, but they shouldn't have to.

 

[vr]

We seem to agree more than we disagree. I did say that the instructor's training is just one of the factors and did not say it was the main one or the most important one. However, it is a factor in how good an instructor might be, and an important one (assuming one wants a thorough course and to be properly trained, as Mike seems to prefer).

There are other factors that go into making a good instructor, and some rise above the limitations of their agency. However, the atmosphere and expectations of any organization start at the top. Few will care to make the effort to rise above mediocrity if that's all their organization calls for.

Diverlink makes an excellent point when they say "you can't teach what you never learned". The instructor's training does make a difference, or at least it can.

You said "I just see too much that can possibly go wrong with thinking its an "important factor". Why? Because then who are you to listen to and who are you to believe?"

Any reasonably astute person will learn as much as they can and weigh the information, the soundness of it, the source (and any motivations they might have for promulgating it), and make a decision based on their own interests. After all, some might prefer the expediency of a minimal course.

So, to answer your question, they can listen to anybody and believe what makes sense to them.