Initial Certification

[rods]

OK... just finishing my certification, and reading these posts along with the information at diverlink.com/newdiver... I now have questions regarding my own certification, PADI open water.

I had planned on diving for a while to gain an applied knowledge of diving and then continue to a higher level of certification. Is there a negative opinion in regards to my certification that will make people believe that I'm a less competent diver (which currently I am) than a diver with a certification from another organization with the same amount of dive time? I'm now wondering if I should certify with another organization instead of continuing in the PADI path. I believe that my training was complete and I had a great instructor... but not knowing anything more about diving than what was taught in the class, maybe I'm missing more beneficial knowledge.

I would like to be the best and safest diver I can... but I don't know how much of that has to do with knowledge that is gain through this certification or that certification as apposed to how well that knowledge is comprehended and applied to actual diving. Soooo... Is the certification organization more important than the students ability to comprehend the information and then dive with those skills acquired until fully competent before continuing? I would think that the factor of "what kind of a student" the diver is would far out way the factor of which organization that student went to learn his skills. With that in mind, is there that much difference between the organizations that the skills acquired from one, no matter what kind of student, would prove to make a more competent diver?

... Sorry for the rambling, this went on longer than I intended...

Rod

 

[vr]

Rod,

I would suggest you not be concerned with what other divers might think of you and not measure yourself against them. As a new diver, you're not the best judge of how good a course you had as you're naturally unaware of what wasn't taught. You lack a reference for comparison. You are, however, an excellent judge of how inadequate a course or instructor might be.

The attitude of each diver is important in how good a diver they will be. When you said "I would like to be the best and safest diver I can" you indicated that mediocrity isn't good enough for you (and it shouldn't be for anybody). With an attitude like that, you would benefit from a more comprehensive course, the type that prepares you for many hazardous situations so you can react properly, rather than shielding you from anything that might scare you off as a diver.

There's a comparison of advanced courses on Diverlink also, as well as a discussion on their main forum by the author (Walter), where he ranks some of them. You might find it useful.

You have a great attitude that should be shared by more divers. You probably realize that diving education is a cointinual process and it's up to you to practice and continue learning outside the classroom and beyond any class. Mother nature is full of surprises and should never be taken lightly or underestimated. The more each of us understands that and prepares for it, the better and safer we will all be.

 

[old_mike]

VR is right on that point!!! Mother Nature never stops figuring out ways to kick our butts and we never stop figuring out how to survive, thrive and have fun while doing it.
i tend to analyze each dive and if even the least little thing is anomalous (N-loading 5/6th to the yellow, ascent rate a little too fast, scared off a fish on approach, forgot which way is north etc.) i tend to mentally kick myself in the butt and try not to do it again. Also, be aware that paradigms are a shifting among divers right now. When i got my C-card, solo diving was considered an abomination unto the Lord and ascent rates of 60 feet/minute was widely considered to be adequate. Now, folks are questioning both of these in the editorial pages of major dive publications.

not to sound cliche, but the only constant is change itself.

 

[Beachman]

...because everyone is a victim of their own experience.

I personally feel that all the basic certifying agencies have the same basic requirements...of instructors, of students, of the diving community. I'll admit that after you get past the basics, each has it's own second level of requirements. But don't eliminate the factor that the real world is a business environment....which means distinguishing yourself from your competitors. That's what I personally feel the second level is all about.

So now we come to the issue of "who teaches the second level better than the other, and what do they teach?". This is where I get into the instructor, because some agencies say "If you teach this at that level, it's not our program and you're out, or not bonded, or not insured, or not supported in a problem, etc.". But that's the world of business and law suits, none of which the student at whatever level gives a damn about.

Therefore, I go with the instructor being the most important. If he's good, and sincere, and probably stupid he will try to give his students as much of his personal experience that he feels they can handle at their level. Sort of like the kindergarten teacher that has some kids coming in reading almost anything put in front of them, and some kids with no help at home that don't even know how old they are when they arrive that first day. The teacher evaluates, and if he or she is good, when the kids leave kindergarten they are both one year ahead of where they started.

In the various certs I've aquired over the years, nothing upsets me more than an instructor that takes my money and assumes I want the cert with the least amount of effort and work...sort of makes me feel like a freshman college student that doesn't know what the world is about and expects a free pass 'cause they know it all anyway. At my age, if I knew it all I wouldn't pay you....I'd just damn do it!

I'd personally choose any agency internationally recognized at recreational diving operations that had an instructor that I thought was going to put me through the wringer...including stuff he probably wasn't supposed to teach me "by the book". Then I know I'd be getting my money's worth.

Just MHO as a consumer that really likes diving.

 

[vr]

Originally posted by Beachman

I personally feel that all the basic certifying agencies have the same basic requirements...of instructors, of students, of the diving community.

You can feel that way, though it has been conclusively proven not to be true. There is a big difference in the requirements (as opposed to optional items) for entry level (open water) certification among some agencies.

One only has to look at the differences between the YMCA at the high end and PADI at the low end to see that.

Aside from that, I share your preference for being put through the wringer when learning. After all, I study things to increase my knowledge and skills, not my certifications. That little card is worthless. The knowledge and skills are what have value.

 

[peter]

Originally posted by William J. Gargan
Hello there;
I am planning to get my SCUBA certification soon. There are several organizations I.E., PADI, NAUI, SSI, etc. What is the difference to an individual like me? What would be the best training?

Thanks, Bill

I was told this one just before i started diving.

A PADI instructor a NAUI instructor and a SSI instructor were sinking ship.
All had students on board.
The SSI inst told his students do put on life jackets to be on the safe side.
The NAUI inst told his students to inflate thier bcd's
The PADI inst asked his students for another $25 for the wreck dive they were about to do.

Remembering this in some shops has caused me to raise an eyebrow.But always with a smile on my face

 

[Iguana Don]

Bill
All of the above replys have lots of merit, the best thing to do is check out the dive shops in your area, talk to the instructors & find one theat you can "talk" to. Many of the shops in my area, not all, have turned into scuba mills, meaning turning out students as fast as possible. I know this is not what anybody wants to hear, but it is true nonetheless. Back to the instructor, find you one that has time to talk and listen to your questions. After you have made your decision & have been certified, then dive dive dive, there is no substitute for experience, as will most of the above agree, no matter what your level of certification is. Read, read, read all that you can get your hands on. Even picking up the tech diving mags, you don't have to be a "techie" to benifit from their knowledge pr experience.No certifying agency can or will teach you everything you will need to know. As they mentioned before, Mother Nature is out there and waiting.
:boom:

 

[Walter]

Interesting discussion. Everyone makes excellent points. As the author of the comparison referred to let me point out you can get an excellent or a poor class from an instructor of any agency. There are people with lots of integrity who will give the best regardless of what their agency requires. OTOH, there are others who have no integrity who will not meet the minimum standards required by their agency. The vast majority of instructors will teach exactly the standards of their agency, nothing less and nothing more. Personally, if I were looking for a class I'd look for the first type of instructor regardless of agency. Those instructors are not exactly common and are usually harder to find as they are usually independent, not teaching at a shop. If I were unable to find one of those instructors, the agency would become much more important to me. At that point, I'd want a Y class. Since YMCA is a smaller agency, there may not be a Y instructor in your area. If not, I'd look for NAUI. Regardless of which agency I found, I'd interview my potential instructor to find out what is included in the class and how it is presented. There are generally 3 ways to approach dive instruction.

The most common is to try to allow everyone to dive by trying to make it easy. To make it easy, they require few skills and little practice time. The course sounds easy, but isn't really easy on anyone except the instructor.

The next approach is not very common these days, but unfortunately it's not as rare as it should be. The macho approach is to require lots of tough skills and by god, you'll do them or you'll flunk.

There is a third way to approach teaching SCUBA and it's what I strive for. I recognize that diving is not for everyone, but there are few who are motivated who can't dive if they are taught with patience. I believe the macho approach has some good ideas, but poor methods. Lots of skills ignored by many agencies actually make you a better diver. They don't teach them because they feel they intimidate students. Those skills intimidate students because they are not presented in a non threatening way. Every skill should be taught in a way that stresses how to make the skill easy, not this is a tough skill.

Which agency is an important, but not an all important consideration. It is merely one of many issues to consider.

For those of you who are interested, the comparison of open water standards has been updated and should be on line soon.

Walter

 

[Iguana Don]

Walter,
What are the differences between the different agencies, I am certified through Pay And Dive Immediately, because one of the people I work with is an instructor. Is there something I missed, I currently have 100+ logged dives and am still alive. Where online will they be posted. Thanks

 

[Walter]

Don,

With 100+ dives you have probably corrected any defiencies that may have been in your initial class. Just because you were certified by PADI does NOT mean your class was not as good as another. Every instructor is different and without watching every single instructor teach, there is NO WAY for me to compare them. Yours may have been the best or the worst on the planet. If you did miss something in your initial class, you can ask yourself a few questions to see if you've made them up in the time you've been diving. Do you know, because of practice, you'd be able to safely deal with the simultaneous malfunction or loss of any two pieces of equipment? Are you comfortable without a mask? Have you continued to study the physics and physiology of diving? If you can answer both questions positively, you have nothing to worry about with regard to your initial class.

You can find the comparison referred to in the new diver section of diverlink.com. Keep in mind, it is out of date. I sent an update in, but it has not yet been updated on the site.

As for explaining the differences between agencies, it's not that simple. I made a chart with 176 requirements that I found in the standards of PADI, NAUI & YMCA. Some of these are required by all three, others by differing combinations of 2 of them and others by only one. Relative value of these different requirements are debatable, we all will have our own opinions. I have two sections in which I explain my opinions on that topic. The chart, however, is totally objective.

The following is taken directly from the updated version that is not yet online:

"This chart was conceived after hearing from many, many divers of all levels, including instructors who should know better, that all agencies are the same; that the individual instructor is all that matters. The most casual examination of this chart shows there are many differences between agencies. None of the agencies are perfect. Often an agency has requirements that are totally ignored by other agencies. PADI requires a student to breathe from a free flowing regulator, NAUI has no such requirement and YMCA only added it this year. This is an excellent skill. On the other hand, PADI’s skin diving requirements are practically non-existent. PADI swimming requirements are weak and confidence-building SCUBA skills are missing. NAUI requires orally inflating a buddy’s BC, neither YMCA nor PADI require this excellent skill. NAUI makes no mention of no mask breathing, a critical skill, and could strengthen its swimming requirements. YMCA requires many confidence-building and problem solving skills that are ignored by PADI and NAUI such as recovering mask and snorkel from the pool bottom. This type skill better prepares a diver for stressful situations and should be included in all classes. All three agencies have room to improve.

PADI’s system is very rigid, allowing little room for an instructor to improve the course by presenting skills in a different order. I believe this is a mistake. PADI only has 5 pool sessions in its outline. In my opinion, few students can become proficient enough to handle an open water experience with confidence with so little time to practice skills. PADI has been removing skills from its requirements since the late 1970’s. The PADI position is that these skills were never necessary, that many of them border on harassment and by taking them out they eliminate the very real problem of task loading. From my point of view, skills are never harassment, but the manner in which they are presented certainly can be. Most skills, including the ones kept in PADI’s standards can be presented in a harassing manner. Presented patiently, and with one simple skill leading to a more complicated one, mastering skills is a source of confidence and a sense of accomplishment for students. What is necessary depends on one’s definition of necessary. Can a person dive without the skills PADI has removed? Yes, in fact, more skills can be removed and a person could still dive. My concern is what happens when something goes wrong. Will the diver be confident and knowledgeable enough to deal with problems and emergencies as they arise? I fear PADI standards do not allow us to answer yes. It seems PADI standards are designed around time constraints instead of around learning to dive.

NAUI has an excellent program. It allows instructors flexibility to make changes and develop the best possible course. Ideas like limiting the maximum hours per day should be adopted by all agencies. NAUI should increase its swimming requirements, add no mask breathing and breathing from a free flowing regulator to its program and increase confidence-building skills.

YMCA has the most comprehensive program studied. Skin diving skills are an intricate part of its program as are the many confidence-building skills. YMCA should adopt NAUI’s idea for maximum hours per day and add navigation to required lecture topics. YMCA recently changed its standards, which eliminated most of my concerns about the program."

I hope this answers your questions.

Walter