I am sad and some what angered to be considered the "low-end" of the diving instruction. I worked very hard to become an instructor and in the opinion of my students and follow dive instructors I am considered very well informed as well as a good instructor.
Initial Certification
- Thread starter William J. Gargan
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Iguana Don
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kechco,
I don't think Walter meant what you are infering, just as he mentioned above the skills required for the different agencies are more or less on a scale of 1-10. "Y" being a 9 or 10 & PADI, NAUI, SSI etc., going on down the scale. I've talked to older divers that went through the "Y" program before scuba became real popular & they told me it took 6 months and longer just to get certified.
I don't know if the sport would be as popular today if it weren't for the likes of the other agencies. How many of your past students would have put 6 months into certification? Streamlining the requirements has done wonders for the sport, but at what price? How long will it be before we have our first 10 year old fatality? THEN we will hear from the masses!
As for my instruction, I had a very good instructor & we still maintain contact & still dive together, he keeps up with my progress along the way.
Hope this smoothens your hackles a bit.
I don't think Walter meant what you are infering, just as he mentioned above the skills required for the different agencies are more or less on a scale of 1-10. "Y" being a 9 or 10 & PADI, NAUI, SSI etc., going on down the scale. I've talked to older divers that went through the "Y" program before scuba became real popular & they told me it took 6 months and longer just to get certified.
I don't know if the sport would be as popular today if it weren't for the likes of the other agencies. How many of your past students would have put 6 months into certification? Streamlining the requirements has done wonders for the sport, but at what price? How long will it be before we have our first 10 year old fatality? THEN we will hear from the masses!
As for my instruction, I had a very good instructor & we still maintain contact & still dive together, he keeps up with my progress along the way.
Hope this smoothens your hackles a bit.
Don,
I do not think a ten year old should be scuba diving although some agencys are moving towards a younger diver. Parents must understand that this is dangerous. I for one will not teach a student that young no matter what PADI, SSI , NAUI or the YMCA say.
I do not think a ten year old should be scuba diving although some agencys are moving towards a younger diver. Parents must understand that this is dangerous. I for one will not teach a student that young no matter what PADI, SSI , NAUI or the YMCA say.
I wouldn't want to be considered the "low end" of dive instruction either. I, for one, did not use that term. If I were to use that term, it would not be directed towards someone with whom I am not familiar. You have the ability to teach as good or as poor a class as you decide, regardless of your agency affiliation. If you are happy with your agency stay with it. If you are not happy with it, look around and make some changes. Additionally, I did not make any references to a scale of 1 - 10. I did not discuss the standards of agencies other than YMCA, NAUI or PADI because I do not have copies of standards from other agencies. SSI may be the best agency in existence or the worst, I have absolutely no information on it. I've heard rumors about various agencies, but rumors have no part in this discussion, IMHO, unless it is to attempt to verify or discredit said rumors. I do not believe there is a need for an open water class that takes six months to complete, nor am I aware of the existence of one. As for 10 year old divers, I've heard RUMORS that PADI and SSI have changed their standards to allow for limited certification of them. I have yet to see standards that reflect this. NAUI & YMCA have definately NOT followed suit nor are they likely to. If your agency allows for the certification of 10 year olds and this is a policy you disagree with; you are not required to teach children of that age. It's still your call.
Now, as to which agency is best, that is opinion, not fact. How one agency differs from another is factual. The relative value of those differences is opinion. Personally, I prefer a more comprehensive approach to dive instruction. I do not apologize for that belief, but you have every right to disagree. If I say YMCA is better than PADI, I am presenting an opinion as fact. Such a representation is wrong, in my opinion. If I say YMCA requires OW students to recover their mask and snorkel from the pool bottom and clear both the mask and snorkel; while neither NAUI or PADI require the same skill, that is a fact. If such a requirement is desirable is open for debate. I can ethically state that one program is better than another, in MY OPINION, but I should be ready to explain why.
Walter
Now, as to which agency is best, that is opinion, not fact. How one agency differs from another is factual. The relative value of those differences is opinion. Personally, I prefer a more comprehensive approach to dive instruction. I do not apologize for that belief, but you have every right to disagree. If I say YMCA is better than PADI, I am presenting an opinion as fact. Such a representation is wrong, in my opinion. If I say YMCA requires OW students to recover their mask and snorkel from the pool bottom and clear both the mask and snorkel; while neither NAUI or PADI require the same skill, that is a fact. If such a requirement is desirable is open for debate. I can ethically state that one program is better than another, in MY OPINION, but I should be ready to explain why.
Walter
"You can feel that way, though it has been conclusively proven not to be true. There is a big difference in the requirements (as opposed to optional items) for entry level open water) certification among some agencies."
Yes, there is. But as has already been put forth, they all basically teach the same thing. The Laws of Physics, Physiology, etc., do not change depending on which agency's name is on the card.
"One only has to look at the differences between the YMCA at the high end and PADI at the low end to see that. "
How do I put this without sounding like I'm trying to impune anyone's reputation? Hmm...
With all due respect to you and the person who actually complied all the information for the Diverlink "database", this is an entirely *subjective* opinion.
IMHO, what is on Diverlink is only ONE PERSON'S view as to what the criterion should be for "proper certification". That person, as learned and experienced as he may be, still is aligned with only one particular agency. I know he put a lot of work into this project, and tried to use a myriad of sources for information, but I nevertheless believe that the results are not entirely objective.
If a similar study was done by the RSTC, DAN or a multi-agency panel, then I would feel that the results were not biased in any way.
Again, I am not trying to belittle or show disrespect to the person who took undertok the project. But I do believe that it is still only ONE PERSON'S OPINION.
~SubMariner~
Yes, there is. But as has already been put forth, they all basically teach the same thing. The Laws of Physics, Physiology, etc., do not change depending on which agency's name is on the card.
"One only has to look at the differences between the YMCA at the high end and PADI at the low end to see that. "
How do I put this without sounding like I'm trying to impune anyone's reputation? Hmm...
With all due respect to you and the person who actually complied all the information for the Diverlink "database", this is an entirely *subjective* opinion.
IMHO, what is on Diverlink is only ONE PERSON'S view as to what the criterion should be for "proper certification". That person, as learned and experienced as he may be, still is aligned with only one particular agency. I know he put a lot of work into this project, and tried to use a myriad of sources for information, but I nevertheless believe that the results are not entirely objective.
If a similar study was done by the RSTC, DAN or a multi-agency panel, then I would feel that the results were not biased in any way.
Again, I am not trying to belittle or show disrespect to the person who took undertok the project. But I do believe that it is still only ONE PERSON'S OPINION.
~SubMariner~
They teach the same topics, but they vary a great deal in the depth in which they cover them. You can't repeat a lie and make it come out the truth.
Of course it is. It is my opinion, not Diverlink's or Walter's (who compiled the information).
Actually, the article clearly states that he is not aligned with any agency and, in fact, has certifications from more than one, including PADI (they are listed).
The comparison is objective. It is skills required by various agencies drawn from their training manuals. It is entirely objective. There are parts, like conclusions, that are clearly labeled as opinion, but that is entirely different than the comparison of required skills.
That's your prerogative, but unbiased comparisons of agencies will likely never come from any diving related business for obvious reasons. They can only come from totally independent organizations or people.
As stated above, parts were opinion, parts were facts. You imply it is all subjective. You're wrong.
Looks like one little question opened up a huge can of worms. Now here's my opinion on it all:
There are no ends in the recreational scuba industry. It's wrong to think of one agency superior to the other. I for one started out in NAUI, and became and Instructor for PADI, TDI and SDI.
I can agree with those before me who have said it's the instructor, not the agency that makes great divers. I've heard numerous times from my former students how they went on a charter or a vacation where all the other certified divers looked incompetant. I too have seen it with my own eyes, each time I do it makes me cringe.
Every instructor has a different style, mine works for me. I for one don't hand out C-cards to everyone who attends a class. Some people have special needs. I've had students in openwater classes that (by the end of the class) were diving safer and more confidently than some verterans I've seen. Most of my students keep diving with me long after the class is over. Do I promote continuing education? You bet your butt I do. But do I make them them take courses in the name of making a buck? Heck No! I could give you the names of dozens and dozens of students whom I've kept diving with, without charging them for additional courses. But that's just me, I'm not in it to put food on my table. I'm in because I love doing it. I'm in it because I'm good at it. And here's the kicker... it doesn't matter which agencies cert card I issue, as long as I feel good about issuing it.
There are no ends in the recreational scuba industry. It's wrong to think of one agency superior to the other. I for one started out in NAUI, and became and Instructor for PADI, TDI and SDI.
I can agree with those before me who have said it's the instructor, not the agency that makes great divers. I've heard numerous times from my former students how they went on a charter or a vacation where all the other certified divers looked incompetant. I too have seen it with my own eyes, each time I do it makes me cringe.
Every instructor has a different style, mine works for me. I for one don't hand out C-cards to everyone who attends a class. Some people have special needs. I've had students in openwater classes that (by the end of the class) were diving safer and more confidently than some verterans I've seen. Most of my students keep diving with me long after the class is over. Do I promote continuing education? You bet your butt I do. But do I make them them take courses in the name of making a buck? Heck No! I could give you the names of dozens and dozens of students whom I've kept diving with, without charging them for additional courses. But that's just me, I'm not in it to put food on my table. I'm in because I love doing it. I'm in it because I'm good at it. And here's the kicker... it doesn't matter which agencies cert card I issue, as long as I feel good about issuing it.
ScubaBaby
Contributor
For such a short questions the replies are endless. Just briefly looking through the answers, I stopped about 1/2 way through.
This thread could continue for a very very long time - reason........we are all trained with different organisations and as soon as one person say something negative about an organisation a student will stand up against them! Its an endless cycle.
My personal view - you can listen to what people say, read all the booklets, magazine articles and information available but you will never know until you personally experience the companies.
The organisations have different ways of teaching and what a new diver needs to know is how they best learn and match that up with the organisation that provides it. Bias through others divers due to their own preferences isnt the best judgement for them.
-x-abby-x-
This thread could continue for a very very long time - reason........we are all trained with different organisations and as soon as one person say something negative about an organisation a student will stand up against them! Its an endless cycle.
My personal view - you can listen to what people say, read all the booklets, magazine articles and information available but you will never know until you personally experience the companies.
The organisations have different ways of teaching and what a new diver needs to know is how they best learn and match that up with the organisation that provides it. Bias through others divers due to their own preferences isnt the best judgement for them.
-x-abby-x-
Scuba Sal
Guest
I totally agree with you ScubaBaby, every person is different and people's styles of learning differ greatly.
We should be grateful that there are so many GOOD quality organisations available so that people are able to make an informed choice which best suits them.
When somebody asks which organisation is better, the obvious answer to each of the respondees is .... the one I used. However, maybe the better advice to give is the websites of the available organisations and let the individual decide by themselves.
Live and Let Dive!
Sally
We should be grateful that there are so many GOOD quality organisations available so that people are able to make an informed choice which best suits them.
When somebody asks which organisation is better, the obvious answer to each of the respondees is .... the one I used. However, maybe the better advice to give is the websites of the available organisations and let the individual decide by themselves.
Live and Let Dive!
Sally
Beachman
Guest
My criteria is I wouldn't certify anyone I wouldn't dive with after the teaching is done. Never have, never will. Of course, I've had several dive shop employers. Of course also, I'm retired (but not from the dive industry).
I don't think you can put certs in distinct categories, like the agencies do. Some folks are destined to be "recretional divers", some are destined to be hard core "tech types". I say, to each his own. The one thing all agencies teach is individual responsibility. I've had students that now give me advice...and they never chose to be instructors..they just dive...and I listen. Why do instructors argue about the best circulum (sp...tired) when the real issue is folks that want their students to be better divers than themselves?
I remember a lady I thought would never "get it" that now when I DM a boat I'm very confortable with her down there with the "tourists", because I know she'll worry about everyone and still have fun herself. Of course, she can't help me on a cert 'cause she hasn't done her DM thing by PADI, of NAUI, or SSI, etc.
We do need standards...wouldn't argue. But the practicality of the issue is....any really good diver that cares about the fundamentals can be a good instructor. How many of you folks reading this felt you did a good job of raising (teaching) your own kids.
Is diving any different? Aren't we basically talking about teaching? May I suggest the NEA is against vouchers in public education? So what makes diving any different? Let me also suggest that teachers are only part, students are only part, the representative agencies are only part, and the real difference is the results that are achieved by the efforts of all.
Sort of a ramble, but I hope you got the point I'm trying to make....it's not the agency, it's what the individual makes of it.
DSAO
I don't think you can put certs in distinct categories, like the agencies do. Some folks are destined to be "recretional divers", some are destined to be hard core "tech types". I say, to each his own. The one thing all agencies teach is individual responsibility. I've had students that now give me advice...and they never chose to be instructors..they just dive...and I listen. Why do instructors argue about the best circulum (sp...tired) when the real issue is folks that want their students to be better divers than themselves?
I remember a lady I thought would never "get it" that now when I DM a boat I'm very confortable with her down there with the "tourists", because I know she'll worry about everyone and still have fun herself. Of course, she can't help me on a cert 'cause she hasn't done her DM thing by PADI, of NAUI, or SSI, etc.
We do need standards...wouldn't argue. But the practicality of the issue is....any really good diver that cares about the fundamentals can be a good instructor. How many of you folks reading this felt you did a good job of raising (teaching) your own kids.
Is diving any different? Aren't we basically talking about teaching? May I suggest the NEA is against vouchers in public education? So what makes diving any different? Let me also suggest that teachers are only part, students are only part, the representative agencies are only part, and the real difference is the results that are achieved by the efforts of all.
Sort of a ramble, but I hope you got the point I'm trying to make....it's not the agency, it's what the individual makes of it.
DSAO
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