Integrated weight vs. non-integrated

[diverbob]

The biggest issue I have with weight belts is, if I have to ditch, I dont want to ditch it all. Especially diving locally, where I am in a thicker suit and will rocket to the surface faster. The other issue I have had with weight belts in the past, is they always want to slide down as I descend, and the suit compresses.

As many have said, I dont think there is a right or wrong answer. Its about what you are comfortable with.

 

[plclark196]

I've been diving for over 40 years so I grew up using a weight belt . I still like it . I find it irritating to find so many divers ( maybe especially instructors) that are very narrow minded on this and many other diving subjects. Its as if they believe that all weight belts should have been sunk on the Nautilus....when actually there are many good reasons for continuing to prefer them... and good reasons for prefering integration.

 

[Sas]

When I first got mine, I lost a weight pocket while on a night shore dive. I never knew it until the following morning when I realized that I didnt have it in place. I didnt shoot off to the surface.. I dont do anything but warm water dive and dont wear any wetsuits for most of my diving.

Sounds like you are overweighted. You might find it easier to drop some weight when diving next.

I wear a weight-integrated BC currently with 26lb of lead (and 12L steel tank) so it is pretty heavy to lift on land for sure, like some people have suggested. But I can get it on myself with no help if needed and I can take the weight pockets out to make it easier. With my BC, I keep 6lb in each pocket so have 12lb of ditchable weight (the rest is in trim pockets next to the tank). The pockets are very secure but easy to ditch so am happy with my setup. I show new buddies how to ditch them if needed. Also, if I need I can ditch one at a time, so am not losing all my weight. But I do agree that doing a ditch and don of a weight integrated BC is harder than with a weight belt (but not significantly so). And no, I have not had to do this outside a class so I guess I would not be what the OP calls an 'idiot' My buddy has had his BC malfunction midway through a dive though, and had to remove it so it isn't always idiocy or entanglement that results in having to take it off underwater, emttim.

I do have a weight belt I can use if I need. Personally, I find weight belts very uncomfortable around my hips to be honest and that is partly why I got a weight integrated BC. Also having weight put up near my tank in the trim pockets makes my trim better, not worse than with a weight belt. I think that both options have their good and bad points so it is whatever you feel comfortable with.

 

[emttim]

Maybe I wasn’t making my meaning clear. I was’t trying to say that a pre-dive safety check is something that an idiot would do. I was saying that anyone that would start a BS non-issue thread like this with a post that calls others that don’t dive like you do an idiot, must surely be an idiot. It was caustic, rude and uncalled for, Jack.

No, maybe you just can't read my original post correctly. My point was that anyone who omits a pre-dive safety check is behaving like an idiot and it's their own fault if they run into trouble during the dive as a result of omitting that check; I stand by my statement. Your response was inane, pointless and an indicator of your level of reading or lack thereof. However, I see no reason to get into a pissing match with you over nothing, so I'm simply going to ignore you.

The biggest issue I have with weight belts is, if I have to ditch, I dont want to ditch it all. Especially diving locally, where I am in a thicker suit and will rocket to the surface faster. The other issue I have had with weight belts in the past, is they always want to slide down as I descend, and the suit compresses.

As many have said, I dont think there is a right or wrong answer. Its about what you are comfortable with.

Well, the flipside to that is that if you drop one weight pocket out of an integrated BCD, I would imagine that'd screw up your trim so badly that you would be in a pretty bad spot regardless. The only way I can think of to avoid a situation like that is to use both a weight belt & integrated weight with half of the weight being in the weight belt...although that would not solve the other problems that were mentioned such as the weight belt affecting trim and/or sliding down.

I definitely agree that comfort should be the primary concern when choosing a weight system. I just find it ridiculous that a significant amount of people seem to be so narrow minded as to state that integrated weight sucks and no one should ever use it. On the other hand, some very good safety concerns were pointed out concerning integrated weight, especially with regards to performing a rescue on a diver who has integrated weight, so I can't say either or is that great of an option. Perhaps a weight harness would be the better choice? I can't say.

I wear a weight-integrated BC currently with 26lb of lead (and 12L steel tank) so it is pretty heavy to lift on land for sure, like some people have suggested. But I can get it on myself with no help if needed and I can take the weight pockets out to make it easier. With my BC, I keep 6lb in each pocket so have 12lb of ditchable weight (the rest is in trim pockets next to the tank). The pockets are very secure but easy to ditch so am happy with my setup. I show new buddies how to ditch them if needed. Also, if I need I can ditch one at a time, so am not losing all my weight. But I do agree that doing a ditch and don of a weight integrated BC is harder than with a weight belt (but not significantly so). And no, I have not had to do this outside a class so I guess I would not be what the OP calls an 'idiot' My buddy has had his BC malfunction midway through a dive though, and had to remove it so it isn't always idiocy or entanglement that results in having to take it off underwater, emttim.

I do have a weight belt I can use if I need. Personally, I find weight belts very uncomfortable around my hips to be honest and that is partly why I got a weight integrated BC. Also having weight put up near my tank in the trim pockets makes my trim better, not worse than with a weight belt. I think that both options have their good and bad points so it is whatever you feel comfortable with.

Fair enough. Can't do much about a malfunction, however, I did namely intend the idiot label for those who omit pre-dive safety checks where they could discover problems that would require the removal of their BCD before they even get in the water.

I'm at a crossroads as to whether to try a weight belt or not because it seems like a lot of people don't like them due to them being uncomfortable. At the same time, the thought of the weight pockets sticking in the event I need to ditch them because they're too full isn't exactly encouraging. In my current setup,I use either 16 or 18 pounds, so I guess I'll just split up the weight inbetween my ditchable pockets and trim pockets...that way if I do have to ditch, there's not so much weight in each pocket that they won't release, and I still have half my weight. In the event a weight pocket falls out, I should be able to dump all my air to drop down and retrieve it.

At any rate, it was worth bringing up to see something more in-depth than "integrated weight sucks it's not safe". Seems like there's a lot of pros and cons for both types of weight systems.

 

[TSandM]

As with so many things in diving, there are arguments for and against almost any strategy.

Integrated weights can work fine, if you distribute weight logically, and if the weight retention system works to retain weights when you want to keep them, yet make it easy to jettison them when it's necessary. Those two aims are diametrically opposed, however, which means many systems will perform optimally for one but not the other aim. My husband's Balance, which he likes a lot, has a good locking system which is easily jettisoned, but he has lost one side of his weights at least once.

On the other hand, I've lost a weight belt once (admittedly with a plastic buckle, which has since been replaced without any recurrence of the problem). Nothing is perfect.

 

[Sas]

I'm at a crossroads as to whether to try a weight belt or not because it seems like a lot of people don't like them due to them being uncomfortable.

Emttim, not sure what kind of weights you have. I have threaded weights which go easily on a $10 weight belt so if you have those types of weights, it is not that expensive to give it a go! You can put some in your BC and some on the belt if you really want.

Otherwise if you have solid weights the belts to hold them are a bit more expensive but not significantly so. So I think it is worth you giving it a shot. Did you not get to try both in OW class? We had to dive with both systems in OW to see what we thought and so we could practice skills like taking off our BC underwater, and practicing ditching both types of weight retention systems.

 

[emttim]

As with so many things in diving, there are arguments for and against almost any strategy.

Integrated weights can work fine, if you distribute weight logically, and if the weight retention system works to retain weights when you want to keep them, yet make it easy to jettison them when it's necessary. Those two aims are diametrically opposed, however, which means many systems will perform optimally for one but not the other aim. My husband's Balance, which he likes a lot, has a good locking system which is easily jettisoned, but he has lost one side of his weights at least once.

On the other hand, I've lost a weight belt once (admittedly with a plastic buckle, which has since been replaced without any recurrence of the problem). Nothing is perfect.

See, this is exactly why I want to get a Mares Dragon BCD...my Oceanic Excursion has those plastic buckles and I just don't trust them 100%. At least the Dragon has the red pull tabs, not velcro closures w/plastic buckles, so no worries about the velcro not holding or the plastic buckles not staying snapped shut. Definitely makes you think twice about which BCD you buy next though.

Emttim, not sure what kind of weights you have. I have threaded weights which go easily on a $10 weight belt so if you have those types of weights, it is not that expensive to give it a go! You can put some in your BC and some on the belt if you really want.

Otherwise if you have solid weights the belts to hold them are a bit more expensive but not significantly so. So I think it is worth you giving it a shot. Did you not get to try both in OW class? We had to dive with both systems in OW to see what we thought and so we could practice skills like taking off our BC underwater, and practicing ditching both types of weight retention systems.

I have the soft pouches with lead shot in them....are you not referring to solid weights when you say threaded weights, since I'm assuming you're talking about the solid weights that have gaps in them to thread a weight belt through? You confused me a little bit there.

We were told the differences between weight belts and integrated weight belts during OW, however, our instructor was very pro-integrated weight so that's pretty much what everyone adopted since every OW student probably assumes something works fine if someone with 6,000+ dives is backing it up. From a purely equipment standpoint, I'm against weight belts because it's one extra thing you have to throw on before you jump in the water. Safety is a concern, however, I'm sure we all like diving with what we're comfortable with. The downside is that since I do have a heavy steel tank, if I was going to do that then I might as well put all my weight (outside maybe 4 pounds for trim) in the weight belt, because in the event I have to ditch my weight, technically I still have a crapload left due to the tank. If I recall the manufacturer specs, the HP steel 100 is like 3 or 4 pounds negatively buoyant even when completely empty.

I suppose it really isn't that big of an issue. If I lose hold of my BCD for whatever reason, yeah, I'm probably shooting to the surface most. However, since that little thing I breath off of is attached to said BCD, I'm not letting go of that damn BCD...period.

 

[Sas]

I have the soft pouches with lead shot in them....are you not referring to solid weights when you say threaded weights, since I'm assuming you're talking about the solid weights that have gaps in them to thread a weight belt through? You confused me a little bit there.

Oh sorry, I meant the pouches of lead shot and the weights that have no holes in them when I said 'solid' weights! But it was poorly phrased by me so sorry for the confusion.

We were told the differences between weight belts and integrated weight belts during OW, however, our instructor was very pro-integrated weight so that's pretty much what everyone adopted since every OW student probably assumes something works fine if someone with 6,000+ dives is backing it up. From a purely equipment standpoint, I'm against weight belts because it's one extra thing you have to throw on before you jump in the water. Safety is a concern, however, I'm sure we all like diving with what we're comfortable with. The downside is that since I do have a heavy steel tank, if I was going to do that then I might as well put all my weight (outside maybe 4 pounds for trim) in the weight belt, because in the event I have to ditch my weight, technically I still have a crapload left due to the tank. If I recall the manufacturer specs, the HP steel 100 is like 3 or 4 pounds negatively buoyant even when completely empty.

My instructors were very pro integrated weight too but they said we should know how to work with both so we got to use both and practice with them both - which I think was a great idea. I have a weight belt as a backup, say if one of my buckles to hold my weight pockets in break, I can keep my weight on my belt instead. To me, I found it very different to get a weight belt back on at depth than a weight integrated BC so was worthwhile for me learning how to do both. And for $10 it is nice to have a backup! I use a 10 or 12L steel tank on dives, with 26lb (which is my correct weighting, I am a floater and I wear a lot of neoprene ), and I don't need to ditch much weight to start ascending so I don't think the steel tank is a worry - but I could be really wrong on this as I am just going off my own experience!

I suppose it really isn't that big of an issue. If I lose hold of my BCD for whatever reason, yeah, I'm probably shooting to the surface most. However, since that little thing I breath off of is attached to said BCD, I'm not letting go of that damn BCD...period.

Practice taking off your BC in water, make it shallow so you can dive back down to get it if you lose a hold of it. It is really easy to stay down and not lose a hold of it, so maybe you just need a bit more practice? We had to do this in OW a lot.

 

[String]

Perhaps I'm missing something, or perhaps some people are simply full of ****, but I'd prefer to find out which it is. I'm going to consider this question, as I said, in the realm of rec diving with a buddy...IE no stop diving, nothing that could be considered tec such as wreck penetration, etc.

That's the first mistake - placing blind reliance in the hand of a 3rd party. Also assumption that just because you stay within NDLs doesnt mean you cant get hurt or bent.

As far as integrated weight goes, the argument (from what I can see) is that in the event you have to take off your BCD, there is a very real possibility of a runaway ascent to the surface. Ok, let's analyze that.

Thats only one of the many reasons i hate them.

1) You ran into a fishing net or something similar and got severely entangled. Ok, fine, but your buddy should be there to help you out and cut away the entanglement so you don't have to take off your scuba unit.

Buddy SHOULD be there. He might not be. What if there's a current and he cant get to you? Off taking a photo? Is also trapped? Has no cutting tool? Panics ?

And if not, then what's to stop you from simply taking the scuba unit off, hooking your legs into the shoulder straps and hugging the scuba unit with your legs while you cut the unit loose?

Entangled generally means your movement is restricted. Such gymnastic feats are hard.

Also try it in cold water while you're desperately trying to stop 30lbs or positive buoyancy from ripping away your grip on the BC. Now try that with 1 hand whilst trying to perform work.

2) Your tank strap wasn't properly tightened and your tank is falling out. Well, this can be alleviated by not being an idiot and doing a pre-dive safety check.

Or it works loose on a dive after being caught or banged.

4) Your tank valve wasn't opened enough and you're having trouble breathing from your reg. Same as #2 and #3 above in addition to simply having your buddy open the valve.

Its that absolute blind reliance on a third party again. Its got lots of people killed before now. Anyway, reach back and open the valve. Doesnt need to be removed.

Outside of removing the BCD and a runaway ascent being possible, the only other detriment I can see is that the weight pockets can fall out which again, could cause a runaway ascent to the surface. Having faulty or crappy gear will cause problems, regardless of what the gear is. Weight pockets falling out shouldn't be an issue with a decent BCD, and again, an adequate pre-dive safety check to make sure the pockets are securely fastened.

Ive yet to see a single BCD on the market that can safely and securely hold 20-30lbs of lead. The number of weight pouches you see at dive sites says it all. In addition the pockets in most are a pain to restow once removed (which you do on 100% of rib dives to get back onboard) and hold the weight out from the centre of gravity making diving with a heavy WI bc akin to driving a car with a shifting load.

In warm water with small amounts of weight then WI maybe viable. I cant think of a single advantage it has over wearing a proper weight harness for all other types of diving though.

In my view most of them are at best sub optimal and at worst dangerous.

 

[Nemrod]

Alright, so because I'm bored, I read most of the thread on if modern dive gear is more efficient than the "old school" stuff, and inbetween that and other threads, it seems like a large amount of people seem to absolutely hate integrated weight and think it's a detriment to safety.---------------------blah---------------------blah-----------------------------------> Outside of removing the BCD and a runaway ascent being possible, the only other detriment I can see is that the weight pockets can fall out which again, could cause a runaway ascent to the surface. Having faulty or crappy gear will cause problems, regardless of what the gear is. Weight pockets falling out shouldn't be an issue with a decent BCD, and again, an adequate pre-dive safety check to make sure the pockets are securely fastened.

So there's my thoughts on the matter. Tell me yours, I'm interested to know!

Doff and don is a basic scuba skill like it or not, if you can easily and without effort perform a doff and don in your current configuration and maintain physical control and bouyancy control, then I guess you are good to go.

Most find it diffucult without a weight belt. I generally use a weight belt. My newest super light travel rig is being set up weight integrated, wing/BP/DR weigh pockets, BUT, I am most likely going to revert to a belt.

In warm water, rash guard and swim suit and four pounds of lead, I can easily control my bouyancy with or without that four pounds of lead on a belt. In my Rubatex 5MM suit, I need quite a bit more lead depending on my plate and tanks etc. I prefer a belt there because without it I would struggle and go all spastic trying to hang on to the rig while I ballooned up, yeah, I can doff and don without the belt but it is a struggle, with the belt, it is EASY. In my 7MM Rubatex, it really becomes a challenge without the belt.

To compound the problem, some people are sinkers and some are floaters. I am a sinker, my wife floats like a cork, she is a floater. She will have more problem with a doff and don that would I without her belt. If your shaped like a pear and float like a cork, you got a problem IMO if you are weight integrated and wearing 7MM and need to doff. N