Is it worth it?

[Jim Lapenta]

I've seen that phrase used as a cover your ass because the student was not given the tools they should have been. Those would have allowed them to assess a dive and decide on their own that they needed to work up to it or not do the dive. Rather than count on an unknown DM to do what they should be able to do themselves. It's a BS cop out.
Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

 

[flots am]

That's what diving should be for. An OW diver is certified to dive independently in conditions similar to those during training. Then when going to different places, with different conditions, different procedures, etc the diver is supposed to have at least a DM giving guidance, who can brief them, explain the particularities of that dive and the differences and then be with them in the water.

I had a different class. My instructor said "Congratulations, you're certified. Go have fun. If anybody wants you to do anything your book said to not do, or that makes you uneasy, don't do it."

In fact, the absolute worst person I could think of for taking me on a dive in new conditions is the DM who has done the same dive 4 times a day for the last year. The potentially dangerous parts just don't register with them anymore.

 

[EFX]

What is your goal? If you want to go pro (Divemaster, Instructor) you will need the specialties. Some dive shops require a master diver cert before going pro. I was glad to see Searcaigh's entry above and his comment on peak performance bouyancy. If you decide to stop at AOW at least take the full PPB course. Every dive you make should be a PPB dive - it is a must-have skill. After taking the intro class toward AOW I worked on reducing my weight and shed 12 pounds from what my instructor started me with. When I continued with the specialty I found out my trim was way off. I hovered upside down. I learned to shift my weight and added 700 psi to the same depth dive later. Or, to put it another way I added 15 minutes. Before the course I didn't notice the extra effort to maintain horizontal trim and thought I was fine. Getting your weight and trim down to where it should be is what you'll learn and will in the end make you a more relaxed diver (no more elevator rides using your BCD!).

You should later take a rescue class. One of the benefits besides learning to rescue your buddy or someone else is you learn to rescue yourself. This also leads to more confidence which will make you more relaxed. The dives will be more enjoyable.

 

[TMHeimer]

What is your goal? If you want to go pro (Divemaster, Instructor) you will need the specialties.


******************



Not true, at least with PADI. You just need up to & including Rescue. A shop can require anything they want above the minimum if you want to work there. You SHOULD have a lot more experience and other training. For example, Deep Diver course "allows" you to go to 130'. How could you lead a dive if you don't have that? I believe people do though. I agree with the rest of your post.

 

[T.C.]

For example, Deep Diver course "allows" you to go to 130'. How could you lead a dive if you don't have that? I believe people do though. I agree with the rest of your post.

I'm sure we're just misunderstanding each other, but there is no requirement to buy the Deep Diver specialty card before you dive deep, or lead a deep dive.

What is your goal? If you want to go pro (Divemaster, Instructor) you will need the specialties.

Oh...Reeeaaallllyyy? Which ones? All of them?

There is no requirement to buy any specialty before becoming a Divemaster or Instructor.

Some dive shops require a master diver cert before going pro.

And this is the whole point of the thread. There are these unscrupulous shops, just salivating for the chance to add expensive courses to what you need. There is no requirement to buy five specialties and pay for a new card just to "go pro".

I'm sure this shop with this expensive requirement is just all too happy to sell you five specialties first, huh?

 

[TMHeimer]

I'm sure we're just misunderstanding each other, but there is no requirement to buy the Deep Diver specialty card before you dive deep, or lead a deep dive.

*****************************



Yes, probably a misunderstanding. I think you mean instructors need specialties in order to teach them. An instructor must have, for example a certain number of deep dives to teach the course. To be honest, I'm not actually sure if he needs the Deep card, I would think so. I know that to teach the Deep course you must have Deep Diver Instructor certification. As well, I was thinking more along the lines of an instructor who is just OWSI certified and doesn't teach specialties--they need no specialty instructor cards or ratings.

 

[EFX]

Originally Posted by ecfehlau
What is your goal? If you want to go pro (Divemaster, Instructor) you will need the specialties.

TC>Oh...Reeeaaallllyyy? Which ones? All of them?
TC>There is no requirement to buy any specialty before becoming a Divemaster or Instructor.

I agree with you. PADI doesn't list any of the specialties as requirements only as courses to make you more successful. So, I should have said want instead of need in my original quote.

TC>And this is the whole point of the thread. There are these unscrupulous shops, just salivating for the chance to add expensive courses to what you need. There is no requirement to buy TC>five specialties and pay for a new card just to "go pro".

TC>I'm sure this shop with this expensive requirement is just all too happy to sell you five specialties first, huh?

I think you're being a bit too cynical here. Yes, there are shops out there who want to sell you a bag of goods. My shop doesn't. They believe that their pros should be knowledgable; That this knowledge base will make the best beginner divers. A case in point: I think it was last month's Dive Training Alex Brylske related a story about a new diver who on this first deep dive came bolting to the surface with no air. When asked why, he explained that on all of his previous dives (in shallow water) he had enought air for about 45 minutes and was shocked to find he had run out of air in less time. If he had the deep specialty this incident probably wouldn't have happened. And no, I'm not a pro. Training + Experience = best diver. Therefore, SSI's AOW means more than PADI's.

 

[TMHeimer]

ecfehlau, Of course, I am a big supporter of the Deep Course. But if this new diver bolted to the surface because he was shocked at not having enough air like he did on his shallower dives, that has to do with not recalling his OW training. And of course not closely monitoring his gas supply.

 

[T.C.]

I think you're being a bit too cynical here. Yes, there are shops out there who want to sell you a bag of goods. My shop doesn't. They believe that their pros should be knowledgable; That this knowledge base will make the best beginner divers.

I didn't say that all shops would do this. But there are shops that will tell you "You have to have X, X, and X specialties before you start DM". And they will be specialties you didn't already buy.

A case in point: I think it was last month's Dive Training Alex Brylske related a story about a new diver who on this first deep dive came bolting to the surface with no air. When asked why, he explained that on all of his previous dives (in shallow water) he had enought air for about 45 minutes and was shocked to find he had run out of air in less time. If he had the deep specialty this incident probably wouldn't have happened.

This diver failed to pay attention in his OW class, where this topic is well and throughly covered. If he bought all the specialties in the world, they would not have saved him from his lack of attention and lack of intelligence.

And if you think that buying a Deep Diver card would prevent this, you're wrong. Explain then why many Deep Diver specialty divers run into the same problems, despite buying this card too.

 

[T.C.]

No, you are mistaken. You are just assuming that the words equal the same level of certification. They Do Not. There is no equivalent in SSI to the other programs AOW. You’ve fallen for the words, not the substance.

It’s like the “cruiser gap” in the early 70’s; the Soviets had 19 Ships named “cruisers” while we had 6! Congress freaked out, ‘we’re falling behind! The sky is falling!’…despite the US Navy having 21 ships with more firepower than all of these, and only two Soviet “cruisers” being equal to our ships, most of which were called Frigates. It’s a semantics argument.

The SSI progression does not have the same number of steps as PADI, for example. SSI's AOW is NOT an equivalent to PADI's. NOR IS IT INTENDED TO BE. It is instead equivalent to the Master Diver rating, and SSI's program falls short, if you want to compare just requirements, as PADI's requires more dives, and one more certification.

Furthermore, you make a classic mistake of logic. You read "Advanced Open Water Diver", and only hear the last words, "Advanced...Diver". That is not the intention of AOW- to produce "advanced divers". The intention of AOW is to produce Open Water (those two critical words you missed) Divers that are more skilled than a Basic Open Water Diver.

Compare that to a Basic Algebra course and an Advanced Algebra course, which builds upon the basic course and teaches more subjects. It doesn't produce mathematicians ready to go find the Grand Unifying Theory...but just more skilled mathematicians than the basic course does.

Stating that any agency is “better” than others is parochial BS. As I said, ALL programs are equal, what makes or breaks a course is the instructor.