Is it worth it?

[Jim Lapenta]

However, having had several conversations with Dan Orr regarding these statistics and looking at it from another angle what the stats show in reality is nothing more than numbers. The reason being is that several key items are missing. Notably the number of dives recently done by the victims, the type of training, how long that training was and how comprehensive, and how many dives the victims do on average. In a totally unscientific survey gained from conversations with the victims friends, relatives, dive buddies etc you start to see that a number of the new and not so new divers had a few things in common. They did not dive regularly. Maybe on vacation or only for something like lobster season. As such they were most likely rusty and out of practice. In some.cases they were using unfamiliar gear. The new divers had taken short courses that might not have prepared them for the conditions the accident happened in. Things like no pre dive buddy check, no detailed dive plan, no real.gas plan. What Dan told me was that what we can in reality learn from the reports is that divers die. This is not a safe sport for those who take shortcuts, don't plan, and don't stay in practice.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

 

[TMHeimer]

Peter and I have talked about the "boat diving" specialty a lot, as one which is easy to make fun of as being worthless. In fact, if you look at the specialty instructor's manual, there is a LOT of stuff you can teach in the boat diving specialty. You can teach about steering the boat, using the radio, tying knots, docking procedures and other things that might be useful for the student who is either thinking of buying his own boat, or dives off friends' boats. Peter teaches SMB deployment in his boat diving specialty, since the ability to send up a marker is awfully nice when you get blown off the wreck or reef. Different types of entries, and the arrangement of granny lines and deco stations and the like, can be part of boat diving.

The problem with the specialties is the same as the problem with the majority of dive training. They are taught TO THE MINIMUMS to keep cost and time down, and often taught by people who don't have a great deal of experience with the topic they are teaching.

I can see that the course could be of value if you're planning to buy a boat or dive privately with a freind who has one. But this would seem more like a boating course than a scuba one. For those who just pay to do charters, boat procedures/skills aren't really needed (one can check out the O2 without a course--just by reading this on SB). SMB skills are good--I believe the new PADI OW course includes this. I guess putting that in a Boat course is a good idea, but probably one should know how to do it anyway for all diving. Having said all that, I must admit I always thought of the course as being one for those who just take charters. Maybe that wasn't the intent, so maybe some of the jokes about it are ill-founded?

 

[Skittl1321]

Does the boat course tell you not to straighten your leg when rolling off the edge of a boat? That was the only thing I wish I knew before I spent a week boat diving... (All but one day I got to giant stride off the back- the day I rolled I came home with a softball size bruise that left a permanent scar.)

 

[TMHeimer]

Skittl1321, I never heard of whether to straighten a leg or not. How did you get injured--when you hit the water? Did you straighten it out while still on board? In the air?

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Does the boat course tell you not to straighten your leg when rolling off the edge of a boat? That was the only thing I wish I knew before I spent a week boat diving... (All but one day I got to giant stride off the back- the day I rolled I came home with a softball size bruise that left a permanent scar.)

That is a basic open water entry skill during which it should be made very clear not to straighten your leg.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

 

[T.C.]

Peter and I have talked about the "boat diving" specialty a lot, as one which is easy to make fun of as being worthless. In fact, if you look at the specialty instructor's manual, there is a LOT of stuff you can teach in the boat diving specialty. You can teach about steering the boat, using the radio, tying knots, docking procedures and other things that might be useful for the student who is either thinking of buying his own boat, or dives off friends' boats. Peter teaches SMB deployment in his boat diving specialty, since the ability to send up a marker is awfully nice when you get blown off the wreck or reef. Different types of entries, and the arrangement of granny lines and deco stations and the like, can be part of boat diving.

The problem with the specialties is the same as the problem with the majority of dive training. They are taught TO THE MINIMUMS to keep cost and time down, and often taught by people who don't have a great deal of experience with the topic they are teaching.

See, That would be useful, relevant information for a diver who wants to use their private boat as a dive boat.

The problem is your second paragraph. I think that provides a great end to the discussion on this specialty- know what you're buying, and if it will be useful.

SO even if the data supports what I said, you're going to debunk it.

OKAY....

The problem is, the statistics don't show what you think they do. That's what we're trying to explain to you.

The problem is that you’re drawing your information from a pool that does not include the general population; only diver deaths. To accurately state that “new divers are more likely to die”, you’d have to show that a greater percentage of new divers die more than experienced divers. Without access to the number of divers around the world, this is meaningless.

Second, and most tellingly, your conclusion is flawed. We know that only 35% of the fatalities were certified less than two years. 1/3 of the sampled diver deaths were new. 2/3rds were over two years, who are more experienced divers. When only a third of deaths are new divers and 2/3rds are not new, this does not support a conclusion that “new divers are more likely to die”.

So lets break down the deaths, using the DAN information. 11 were OW, presumably new, but not conclusively. 18 were advanced, and 8 were dive professionals! And five of the deaths were students, under the same supervision and care of a professional that you think is needed.

A whopping 12 were technical divers, a group that would include the most experienced and well-trained divers. That's more than the new divers. Are tech divers more unsafe or more likely to die? It's an interesting point, because there are definitively less tech divers than new divers, yet they account for more deaths than new divers.

The data does not support your conclusion. You looked just at the graph; you didn’t read the text. You didn’t apply critical thought to this. There is no group “most likely to die”. To echo the DAN report; “The primary lesson to learn is that every diver, regardless of experience, must maintain vigilance and adhere to safe diving practices.”

 

[TMHeimer]

That is a basic open water entry skill during which it should be made very clear not to straighten your leg.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

Jim, I'm pretty sure the PADI standard is just to do a deep water entry, not all possible ones. Aside from that, I still can't figure why or how you would even think of straightening a leg. This has never occurred to me.

 

[Skittl1321]

That is a basic open water entry skill during which it should be made very clear not to straighten your leg.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

We never rolled in open water (nothing to roll from) so other than mentioning it was a possible entry not much was taught about it.

Why would you (and how, actually) from a dock?

---------- Post added April 14th, 2014 at 04:47 PM ----------

Aside from that, I still can't figure why or how you would even think of straightening a leg. This has never occurred to me.

i didn't think of doing it, but apparently not focusing on NOT doing it caused me to straighten it at some point and I slammed into the boat hard with my leg.

 

[PfcAJ]

TC, the curve would be a flat line if each groups chance of dying was the same. It isn't. It's heavily skewed toward the new diver population.

Look ok at the next page. The vast majority had very little recent experience.

Do you really think that a diver with 10 yrs of diving is as likely to die as a brand new ow diver? Really?

and once again, don't try and tell me what I think. I don't think they "need" supervision. If they want it they should go get it though.

 

[T.C.]

TC, the curve would be a flat line if each groups chance of dying was the same. It isn't. It's heavily skewed toward the new diver population. Look ok at the next page.

Yeah, we see the pretty graphs. The problem is that you try to compare the new diver to every other group individually; first the 2 years diving group, then the three, then the four...but never all at once. That's what the issue is. The issue is not does a new diver (a much larger statistical population) have a greater chance of dying then a diver with only 5 years experience (a much smaller group). It's whether they have a greater risk than experienced divers; of all years. They don't.

The vast majority had very little recent experience.

As I can't open the report on this computer, perhaps you like to cite where DAN concluded this. Of the divers who died, only eleven were new divers. 12 were techdivers, 8 were professionals. That's 42% of the 48 deaths, leaving just 58 percent in your category.. Is your opinion of "vast majority" really that poor?

Do you really think that a diver with 10 yrs of diving is as likely to die as a brand new ow diver? Really?

You're missing the point of the thread. That group is much smaller than the other group. So they suffer numerically less fatalities. But if you look at the data, you'll see that there isn't a group more or less at risk; it happens to all group. You tech divers are at a higher risk of dying than new divers. Percent-wise, more tech divers die than new divers. You add the number of professional divers to tech divers (equalling 20), and that is nearly half the diver deaths reported. It is far, far from supporting your conclusion that new divers are more likely to die.

and once again, don't try and tell me what I think. I don't think they "need" supervision. If they want it they should go get it though.

Quit misreading what I say. That isn't what I wrote at all.