Is Side Mount the new DIR??? Building resentment towards us as a group...

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That thread supports the premise of this thread. Even then, many of the comments had to be deleted or edited to make them clean enough for that forum. Most people read the sanitized form of ScubaBoard, after the mods have removed all the hate and intolerance. You guys would make it like the Pub if we left it alone. But again, that you don't like your bickering labeled as such is just more, wait for it... denial.

It seems that anyone who doesn't share your perspective on an issue is in denial.

I think you wrote off the discussion in the "bicker battle" based on a knee-jerk assumption. An assumption that is tainted by your specific personal experiences. You do not consider that others have different experiences and, hence, different perspectives. The moderation of that thread should have been delegated to a more impartial mod who didn't have an emotional bias on the issue - which you obviously do.

That's merely my perspective on the thread. I wouldn't accuse anyone else of being in denial, if they didn't share that perspective....

What I saw in the "bicker battle" was one contentious individual (Razorista... who is currently suspended) and a community of sidemount divers trying to redress and/or moderate what he was saying because it didn't represent them.

I see that sidemount divers in this thread are also contesting your claims as they don't want it to represent them either. Apparently, we're all in denial... and only you know the truth. FIGJAM? That's kinda similar to Razorista's approach to sidemount debate.... isn't it?
 
I think the only real problem I have had with SM divers has been in Mexico. Some cenote access isn't very large, and I've noticed on more than one occasion a team will take all of their tanks down for a double stage and leave them, then go stand in the parking lot chatting, eating lunch, etc. Now I think that's a personal type of douchebaggery, not specific to SM, however I think because they are SM divers it enables that type of behavior. I don't know any BM diver that goes and lays their twinsets down at the waters edge and then eff's off for half an hour.

That's an interesting...and quite location specific...example. I'd never thought of SM being a good 'enabler' for douchebaggery.

Again, I think SM just facilitates that sort of behavior, I don't think it's something endemic to SM'ers. I don't think that it's a lack of respect inherent to SM'ers, I just think that sort of disrespectful behavior happens less with BM divers simply because the opportunity doesn't present itself.

Here's a thought....

Sidemount diving is a new and emerging practice for the majority of those who participate in it. As such, it's not only stuff like equipment configuration that is developing. Areas like dive etiquette are also developing over time.

With BM... there has been sufficient time to develop formal and informal 'community standards' on etiquette. It's had time to sink in. Expectations of behavior are known.

Once upon a time....I am sure there were douchebags who left their BM doubles in the way, cluttered cave entrances, boat decks, jetties etc...and generally acted inconsiderately towards their fellow divers. I think, over time, that behavior gets moderated by the community. People learn what is expected of them.

Sidemount is relatively new. There'll always be people who need to 'learn' etiquette... have specific expected behaviors spelled out to them... and cannot apply courtesy pro-actively.

It's the 'newness', not the 'sidemount' that might cause occasional issues with etiquette.

Dive Boat Captain Issues:

I think this also applies to the perceptions that we see from a small number of boat captains. I think those comments would apply equally to BM doubles. Too cluttered, too much space taken, not necessary for the dives done. It'd also apply to CCR divers - who take way longer to kit up and require much more space.

Some boats just cater for single-tank divers. That's fine. There's no shame in that. So that's what should be communicated by the captains... not to single out sidemount diving as a problem.

The diving world is evolving. The evolution is causing angst on some boats is simply that recreational divers are now using a more diverse range of equipment. Not only sidemount - but also recreational CCR. I've even seen boat captains on Scubaboard complaining about BP&W single-tank BCDs.... as they don't fit the tank holders on their boats etc.

I am sure we'd see the same complaints / blame focused on recreational CCR divers - it's just that the captains concerned haven't yet had recreational divers turn up for diving on their boats with that kit.

Frankly, if a boat or dive center can't cater for divers in anything other than basic single-tank jacket BCDs, then they should just be clear about that. It isn't a situation that requires 'blame' to be allocated either way, to any party.

Honestly, there is no longer such a thing as a 'recreational' or 'technical' dive boat... with regards to space allocation and equipment stowage etc. Recreational diving isn't... never had been... defined by only using single-tank jacket BCDs. But people got used to that because...previously.... no other options were commonly available to recreational divers. Times change folks....

Recreational divers using sidemount and CCR will increase in the future... but are likely to remain a small minority of the recreational diving population.

If a recreational dive boat captain didn't want the cost of re-modelling their decks, or the effort of adapting their procedures, to cater for that minority it's perfectly understandable.

At the same time, boat captains, charters and dive centers need to accept that diving habits are evolving and what we see now is recreational divers using a more diverse range of approaches.....and that's perfectly understandable also.
 
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It seems that anyone who doesn't share your perspective on an issue is in denial.
Dude, get over yourself. Lots of people disagree with me about a lot of things. This is about this particular issue. Why are you so defensive about it if it's not a problem? Why are you so intent on convincing those of us who do see it that we are hallucinating? That's denial. I even showed your condescension in your post where you couldn't accept that someone just didn't like it. You can't fix a problem until you can recognize it and admit it. Your argumentum per deluvium doesn't make it right.
 
@DevonDiver, you may be right, it may just be the new popularity of SM that enables that behavior to occur. And it's entirely possible that people used to leave twinsets lying around. However, I think it's more difficult to leave 70 pounds of 108's lying around. I'm not sure that there's really any necessity for community driven etiquette. I think it's just common courtesy. I would absolutely say something to a BM diver leaving their stages all over the place, it just seems much easier for SM divers to do it, and/therefore? much more common.

To make it completely clear, I only have a problem in places where space is tight and instead of gearing up as soon as possible, they leave their stuff water side while they waste time doing other stuff. I get not wanting to wear your tanks down to the water, it's much more comfortable in BM, especially something like a double stage scooter dive, but it shouldn't be a 45 minute endeavor when other divers are trying to dive the system. If you put your stuff by the water, it should only be there long enough to grab the rest of your gear and jump in. If there's not much space waterside at the entrance, put them to the side. Easy, you don't look like a douchebag, and it's no great burden to move them a couple feet to make life easier for fellow divers.
 
It seems that anyone who doesn't share your perspective on an issue is in denial.

I think you wrote off the discussion in the "bicker battle" based on a knee-jerk assumption. An assumption that is tainted by your specific personal experiences. You do not consider that others have different experiences and, hence, different perspectives. The moderation of that thread should have been delegated to a more impartial mod who didn't have an emotional bias on the issue - which you obviously do.

That's merely my perspective on the thread. I wouldn't accuse anyone else of being in denial, if they didn't share that perspective....

What I saw in the "bicker battle" was one contentious individual (Razorista... who is currently suspended) and a community of sidemount divers trying to redress and/or moderate what he was saying because it didn't represent them.

I see that sidemount divers in this thread are also contesting your claims as they don't want it to represent them either. Apparently, we're all in denial... and only you know the truth. FIGJAM? That's kinda similar to Razorista's approach to sidemount debate.... isn't it?

Agreed, it's just clickbait
 
@JohnnyC I agree... but lack of courtesy is lack of courtesy. I fail to see how sidemount influences that.

I could say the same about recreational single-tank divers who clutter up every table-top pre and post-dive in the dive center. About photographers who cover the seating in the boat dry area with their precious rigs. About backmount doubles divers giving boat staff hernias. etc etc etc...

If someone is gonna be a douchebag... they'll find a way to do it... they don't need to take up sidemount diving :wink:
 
I look at sidemount diving as I do any other type of diving. It is a tool to an end. If the tool works for one, that is OK, if it does not work for another, that is OK. For tech, I primarily dive back mounted doubles or use side mounted bailout bottles for my rebreather,... it works for me. I can understand people wanting to use sidemount to allow them to dive with physical ailments that would otherwise not be able to do so. I also understand it in the case of exploration into tight areas. I have dove sidemount before & can not say I was impressed. It was "meh" to me & a bit of a pain in the rear to configure things cleanly. It has taken me over a year to get my sidemounted bailouts configured the way I want, but I am now there. I am used to my back mounted doubles & they work for what I use them for. I have had sidemounting buddies tell me that I need to do sidemount..... I just kindly tell them that what I use works fine for me right now,... if things change, then I may look at it again. In my humble opinion, Single cylinder is OK, if it works for the diver, Back mount is OK, if it works for the diver, Sidemount is OK if it works for the diver & Rebreather with sidemounted bailouts is OK if it works for the diver. Instead of worrying about who dives what,... why don't we all just get along, have fun & dive? Isn't that what diving is all about?
 
#31 kensuf - I think you're right that yes, SM has become the new religion of technical diving, but I think it's misguided....

Bob (Grateful Diver)

Wow. That's not exactly what I wrote. Not even close really.

Here's what I wrote:

I dove sidemount for a little over a year beginning back in 1999. The only commercially available kit at the time wasn't that great, so we had to make our own harness from scratch. Ironically, what we came up with looked a lot like the Razor harness.

My reasons for diving SM back then was three-fold:

1. To explore smaller cave

2. To explore cave where being solo for part (or all) of the dive was preferable due to the cave features (poor vis, etc)

3. Diving out of a canoe

Back then, for the majority of people, SM was a tool for a job.

Something changed in the 17 years since then, and SM has become all of the rage these days -- I've even seen guys diving sidemount to go lobstering in 30' of water off Key Biscayne -- WTF??? I think you're right that yes, SM has become the new religion of technical diving, but I think it's misguided.

Honestly, I don't think SM is suitable for everyone. In my opinion, just like a CCR, SM is a tool that should be used for specific purposes. I think my reasons for diving sidemount back then were pretty good, and I think if you have some debilitating condition that makes it challenging to manage doubles on dry land then that is probably another good reason to consider sidemount. But for the majority of people that are interested in getting into cave diving, I think they would be better served to learn the mindset and skills in backmount first and when they have more experience and are beginning to dive tighter cave passage then they should consider using sidemount.

I'm sure I'll be vociferously excoriated for my opinion (Benno, Beester, your word for the day is excoriated).

Taking one sentence out of an entire posting misrepresents my original posting and point.

My point was I view it as a tool for a job, and like some tools, in my opinion it's not applicable for all diving circumstances. I don't use my double 104's when I go do a 30' reef dive in the keys either.
 
And I didn't bad mouth SM divers as well. I simply repeated what two dive shop owners told me. The statement doesn't bad mouth anyone. But SB is like a lot of other Internet forums, people will read what they want to read and not what is actually said.
 
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