January 9, 2011 - GUE/Halcyon/Brownie's Third Lung Demo Day

[ucfdiver]

I have used the Halcyon scooters for almost 6 hours run time in a day, yes I had to switch scooters, but did not find it to be hard on the hand. Wonder if the one you used had a balance issue? I had 3 Gavins before I switched to Halcyons. Gavins are great for the long range cave diving and I hope to get back to that again soon. About to add another Halycon 16 to my collection and will probably be adding magnum gavin scooters back to the collection in the near future again, yikes!
Errol

Doubt mine had many issues, it came right from the big H. I drove a magnus and it had a lot less torque steer and power, yet seems about the same weight. Not sure how that works.

Either way, I'd love to own one, and for OW stuff, Gavins are practically irrelevant anyways since they're so heavy.

my friend's new t16 only burntested for 60 minutes

To be fair, I've done a dive with that friend where we put over 80min on it in the front of the cave, and it never cut off (just the low battery alarm). I don't think he had the correct burn tester.

 

[LiteHedded]

yea that may have to do with a lower payload in reality compared to the resistance of the burntester, which is supposed to simulate a higher load on the motor. I dunno.

fun scooter to dive though. there's a neat article about them in the new quest

 

[Scott L]

Oops...

 

[aprxh]

Thanks for hosting the demo day at BHB and feeding us.

It was nice meeting and diving with everyone that was there.
Errol was very informative about GUE and he showed me 2 videos.
I asked if he could look at my BP/W and make sure I set it up correctly. When I purchased the kit, I did not know any GUE divers in real life and used scubaboard and links to set it up. The only changes he recommended were to move the d-rings up a little on the chest. My BP/W was not the brand they were using and he was happy to go over it with me.
I then dove with Errol and 2 other divers for a little tour under the bridge. After the tour they let us try some scooters. The scooters were very cool.

 

[ucfdiver]

yea that may have to do with a lower payload in reality compared to the resistance of the burntester, which is supposed to simulate a higher load on the motor. I dunno.

No one else seems to either.

 

[Errol Kalayci]

A few words of caution. The R14/T16 batteries and wattage consumption are not the same as Gavin. Both the Suex and old style Gavin burntesters were designed to mimic a 16amp power draw. Gavins actually draw around 20amps under full load so your burntester burn time less 20% was the real in water number you were looking for with the Gavin. The R14 is a 14amp battery and the T16 is a 16amp battery. Placing either of the batteries on a 16amp burn tester is excessive and will likely reduce the life of the batteries over time. Personally I do not see a need to burn test these batteries, especially the R14. These are not cave exploration scooters. If you are going to burn test, make sure to have the automatic one so you don't toast the batteries. Further, once the batteries have been cycled over 5-10 dives it would be ok to burn test the T16 battery maybe once every 3 months, but not the best idea.

If you do, the T16 motor only draws 12.5 amps so your burn time +25% is likely to give you the target burn time. If you test the T16 battery on a gavin or suex burn tester will only get 45 minutes best case plus your 25% factor. The T16 are impressive as they not only are able to match speed with the Gavins but also burned longer with only a slight adjustment in speed from 12 o’clock to 3 o’clock. NiMh batteries are fairly reliable but sensitive to excessive discharge and heat. Make sure you are not keeping the scooters in a car or in direct sun for long periods of time. They are also sensitive while charging so make sure the batteries and the charging environment are cool so they do not kick off pre-maturely. The T16 cells should be removed from the body while charging.

Hope this helps.

 

[TSandM]

aprxh, glad you had a good time! It has definitely been my experience that, at heart, GUE is brand-neutral. They are concerned with whether things are well-designed to work well, not with who makes them!

 

[LiteHedded]

I'm not sure what kind of test he used. james may know?

in my limited experience with the T16 is was not able to match speed with either of the two 35ah gavins in the team . could be more of a rider issue than a scooter issue though

 

[ucfdiver]

A few words of caution. The R14/T16 batteries and wattage consumption are not the same as Gavin. Both the Suex and old style Gavin burntesters were designed to mimic a 16amp power draw. Gavins actually draw around 20amps under full load so your burntester burn time less 20% was the real in water number you were looking for with the Gavin. The R14 is a 14amp battery and the T16 is a 16amp battery. Placing either of the batteries on a 16amp burn tester is excessive and will likely reduce the life of the batteries over time. Personally I do not see a need to burn test these batteries, especially the R14. These are not cave exploration scooters. If you are going to burn test, make sure to have the automatic one so you don't toast the batteries. Further, once the batteries have been cycled over 5-10 dives it would be ok to burn test the T16 battery maybe once every 3 months, but not the best idea.

If you do, the T16 motor only draws 12.5 amps so your burn time +25% is likely to give you the target burn time. If you test the T16 battery on a gavin or suex burn tester will only get 45 minutes best case plus your 25% factor. The T16 are impressive as they not only are able to match speed with the Gavins but also burned longer with only a slight adjustment in speed from 12 o’clock to 3 o’clock. NiMh batteries are fairly reliable but sensitive to excessive discharge and heat. Make sure you are not keeping the scooters in a car or in direct sun for long periods of time. They are also sensitive while charging so make sure the batteries and the charging environment are cool so they do not kick off pre-maturely. The T16 cells should be removed from the body while charging.

Hope this helps.

Could you explain why the burn tester is 20% less? I know some of the PVC's have higher amp draw than the newer HDPE, a difference I assume is somewhat substantial since motor load raises exponentially to speed. If you're who I think you are, you were around back when they were figuring this stuff out...and I don't completely understand...

I'm not sure what kind of test he used. james may know?

in my limited experience with the T16 is was not able to match speed with either of the two 35ah gavins in the team . could be more of a rider issue than a scooter issue though

I'm about 90% sure it was a suex burn tester, but maybe for a different motor...I'll ask. The backend of Andreas' and Ken's scooters look different than the back end of a H scooter, so I think there have been changes over the years, maybe it wasn't the correct tester.

The T16 was faster than my Gavin when I was driving it and had a newer DPV rider on my Gavin. My Gavin was faster when things were flopped on the same dive (I drove the Gavin), so I bet that issue goes away with experience. Ken's Suex was slightly faster than mine (he has a crapload of experience on me however, and we didn't swap them), and the XK2 was quite a bit faster no matter who drove it.

Just my observations from scooters I've *personally* dove with (either me driving, or I'm riding with a diver I know isn't holding up the speed), speed seems to be like this...ones where I think diver skill effected overall speed difference are on the same line.

1) Magnus - STUPID fast. I can't even describe what this thing feels like or people would think I'm exaggerating....you've got to test drive one to see for yourself.
2) Suex XK2 UV26 and UV18's (can't tell a difference)
3) Suex 33amp hr
4) T16 / Gavin Standard / Gavin Magnum

 

[PfcAJ]

I was chatting with George about these burn testers and how it applies to actual diving.

I got from him that a properly configured diver, riding the Gavin properly, would draw less than 16amps. He stated that the burntime you would get from the resistor is fairly conservative (which is a good thing). Apparently, the newer motors in the HDPE back ends are more efficient than the ones in the PVC tails. Also, pitching down a bit when towing a diver or a bunch of stages/ scooters is a good idea as it lowers the current draw a bit. The take home message was that there is some variability and to be conservative with your times. If you want to go farther, take more scooters.

There is a lot of variation in Gavins, that's for sure. My 2 PVCs are faster than my HDPE. At least one of those PVCs is faster than the T16 (I passed litehedded when he was trying it out, even though I was towing a standard G). A week later, we did a 3000' run as a 3 man team, two of us diving PVCs, 1 with the T16. The difference isn't enough to cause issues or anything, but the difference exists.