Latent organizational weakness

[Marie13]

I do plan on that in aspect of self reliance and redundant gear. As I continue to dive I would like to press on in different modules of training. Just concerned as this person moves on to other walks in life that if there bad habits aren't corrected now we may read about them or their buddy in the future. Not saying that will actually happen, but obviously we as his friends know it because we've seen it in the training environment and we've seen the same behavior outside the training environment. But once this person dives with different people in life that new "dive buddy" will not be aware of the issue if we dont do are due diligence and try and help him now. And also please be aware I am in no way saying he is alive because of how super "attentive to every detail" we might assume we are. Because we are human also. My main point is as in your statement I am going to do everything I can to be a good dive buddy. He just seems "spaced out" and not really engaged in certain aspects.

Sometimes the best you can hope for is like what people say about a drunk driver - that if they do something disastrous, they only hurt themselves.

 

[johndiver999]

Sometimes the best you can hope for is like what people say about a drunk driver - that if they do something disastrous, they only hurt themselves.

Drunk drivers kill many totally innocent people and destroy entire families. The analogy is ???

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

we were taught to do buddy checks and to visually verify that the SPG isn't dropping when breathing from the reg etc. If your OW instructor failed you by not teaching those things, then that's a fault of that particular instructor, not of any particular agency.

I would suggest testing out how open your valve has to be in order for the needle to move. I found that I had to have it only a crack open. A quarter turn and the needle didn’t budge.

 

[Storker]

Kudos to the OP for sticking to his training and his common sense. When I was freshly certified, I followed my basic training and ran the BWRAF before every dive. If I was buddied up with a more experienced clubmate, they sometimes did a minor double-take when I asked for the buddy check, they obviously had stopped doing that. Being an arrogant SOB, I didn't let that affect my routines and continued to do a proper check before every dive. Because those times I've had an issue after splashing, it was always when I hadn't done my pre-dive check properly.

Being the more experienced diver in a buddy team comes with responsibility. With a buddy I know well, we can do the entire check without anyone noticing it at all, but if there are freshly certified divers present I make an effort to make our pre-dive check clearly visible to anyone looking, because I don't want to give the n00bs the impression that it's OK to just splash without having checked your gear properly.

 

[Craig Myers]

DIY

Reading your statements in reference to "get over it" and "DIY" my analysis is you figure I'm one of those "newbie" divers trying to re-invent the wheel of sorts or trying to stir the pot per say. While I do respect your statements and "should get over it" to a certain degree, let me interject a little.

When it comes to the card I mentioned. Not every person is a visual person and having a quick reference card is warranted I would believe by most people. In saying that, human error happens all the time. Just like when I typed the first post in this thread. A small grammatical error on my part induced some backlash by others. Just like in my stress and rescue course, risk mitigation is very important. It's simply the failure tree model. A small mistake can lead to more complex issues later on and even stress in a diver.

Also operational experience plays into risk mitigation. Just like this board having an "accident and incident" section. Studying what others have had errors with makes everyone a better diver...but also learning from the mistakes of other means that another individuals got hurt or even became deceased. Into which I am simply trying to help an individual with apparent lack of a good safety practice not to become OE himself.

I believe as with anything we do there is always room for improvement. Heck when diving first started they didn't have spg's, they didn't have octo's and when new ideas and accidents happened new safety measures became more common place.

So in saying that. Diving as with most sports is ever evolving so why couldn't dive organizations make a simple cheap card or as another poster stated of certain things not being in the padi manual? It never has hurt anyone to have a good questioning attitude and to validate their assumptions.

 

[Marie13]

Drunk drivers kill many totally innocent people and destroy entire families. The analogy is ???

If you know someone has dangerous behavior and is going to really hurt (or kill ) themselves sooner or lafter, you hope they only hurt themselves when they do something really stupid, not taking out others.

 

[The Chairman]

If you know someone has dangerous behavior and is going to really hurt (or kill ) themselves sooner or lafter, you hope they only hurt themselves when they do something really stupid, not taking out others.

What's really dangerous? For many it's the fact that they don't dive in the same way. I can't think of the last person I wouldn't dive with. I just adapt.

My simplified buddy check is two fold:

1. Do they look like a diver?
2. Did I hear them breathe on their equipment?

For the record, I teach my students to breathe on their regs while watching their SPG. If I hear them breathe, I assume they were checking their SPG. If we're diving together for the first time, I'm going to ask if you did just that and make sure you did. If I didn't hear you breathe, I'll just ask you to do just that. Pretty simple and very effective. If they splash without a piece of gear and their air is on, what's the big deal? Sure, it's embarrassing, but how dangerous is it to jump in without a piece of gear if you can still breathe? You mentioned that someone sank like a rock, well that's a weighting issue. Everyone should have been taught how to inflate their BC orally, so they should be able to stop their descent pretty easily if their air is on. Yeah, get rid of the extra weight but this should be an easy fix, even at depth. No mask? Well, you can still breathe, right? Breathing is the real biggie. Everything else is resolvable.

Now here's a reality check. How many people know what their buddy's tank pressure is DURING the dive? Do you know how to extrapolate their consumption based on your own? I've heard people complain bitterly about their buddy running out of air and my first thought is "Why did you allow that to happen?" I'm my buddy's redundant brain as well as their redundant air, eyes, buoyancy etc. Why dive ignorant when you can know? You can't make timely decisions without that information. It's my opinion that you're not much of a buddy if you don't know.

To be clear, I dive like my buddy is an "SOB" or Same Ocean Buddy. I don't expect them to realize if/when I'm in distress and that alone affects how I dive. That doesn't mean I have to be an SOB and so I take any buddy commitment seriously. Sure, if I am very comfortable with you, we might decide to be functionally solo divers, while saying we're buddies, but that's reserved for very, very few. But just because you will probably ignore me, doesn't mean I won't be your shadow and know your air supply during the entire dive. I almost always turn the dive based on my buddy's air supply before they do. That's my job and I take it seriously.

 

[kelemvor]

How many people know what their buddy's tank pressure is DURING the dive?

I do. It's on my dive computer right next to my tank pressure. That's one of the best things about hoseless A.I... and diving with the same buddy all the time.

 

[The Chairman]

I do. It's on my dive computer right next to my tank pressure. That's one of the best things about hoseless A.I... and diving with the same buddy all the time.

You don't need that to know your buddy's pressure. Just saying. For those who don't have wireless AI, learn to ask and then extrapolate. Re-check as you get close to your turn or ascent pressures. You have failed as a buddy if you have allowed them to go OoA.

 

[Craig Myers]

You don't need that to know your buddy's pressure. Just saying. For those who don't have wireless AI, learn to ask and then extrapolate. Re-check as you get close to your turn or ascent pressures. You have failed as a buddy if you have allowed them to go OoA.

That is a practice that my "good dive buddy" and I always do. The hand signal process is effective for that type of communication. Quick and simple.