LDS Disillusionment

[lairdb]

Since you asked for some specifics, let's start with the following, taken directly from Aqualung's web site


The Free Parts For Life Agreement is a three party agreement that involves responsibilities of the original owner, the authorized Aqua Lung Dealer and Aqua Lung.
[...]
The next part came from the FTC's web site:

[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 16, Volume 1, Parts 0 to 999]
[Revised as of January 1, 1998]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 16CFR700.10]

[Page 536-537]

[...]
(c) No warrantor may condition the continued validity of a warranty
on the use of only authorized repair service and/or authorized
replacement parts for non-warranty service and maintenance. [...]

Now, my interpretation is that: You can't require parts and service together for warranty validity unless the service is free.

Unless you can. 15CFR2302(c):"[...]except that the prohibition of this subsection may be waived by the Commission if -

(1) the warrantor satisfies the Commission that the warranted product will function properly only if the article or service so identified is used in connection with the warranted product, and

(2) the Commission finds that such a waiver is in the public interest."

That's one of two angles on which Aqualung may be in the clear.

The other is the question of whether the "Free Parts For Life Agreement" is part of the warranty. If I were in Aqualung's shoes, that's where I'd go first -- that the "Free Parts For Life Agreement" is separate and entirely unconnected to the warranty.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Unless you can. 15CFR2302(c):"[...]except that the prohibition of this subsection may be waived by the Commission if -

(1) the warrantor satisfies the Commission that the warranted product will function properly only if the article or service so identified is used in connection with the warranted product, and

(2) the Commission finds that such a waiver is in the public interest."

That's one of two angles on which Aqualung may be in the clear.

The other is the question of whether the "Free Parts For Life Agreement" is part of the warranty. If I were in Aqualung's shoes, that's where I'd go first -- that the "Free Parts For Life Agreement" is separate and entirely unconnected to the warranty.

Maybe I'm misreading this but if...item one is saying that a waiver could exist based on the fact that the function of the product is dependant on service by their authorized service center that they specify it's a red hering in the extreme.

Item 2 would also fall apart because seems based on the assumption that number one is true.

Further if either is true it's because they refuse to sell parts and service information. That fact and that fact alone is the only thing that could possibly render any one who works on regs to be unable to work on their regs.

The whole idea of restricting the sale of parts and the distribution of service information should be stopped.

Using it to justify artificially holding up the selling price should, IMO, land some one right in prison.

The fact that the manufacturers have gotten away with this for so long doesn't say much about the "smarts" of the diving community.

 

[fashionablylate]

The whole idea of restricting the sale of parts and the distribution of service information should be stopped.
...
The fact that the manufacturers have gotten away with this for so long doesn't say much about the "smarts" of the diving community.

Perhaps, but this is a disturbing concept when you're talking about "life support" systems. Where is the liability if the manufacturer sends Bob some parts and a service manual, and Bob screws it up and gets himself killed? Since there is no service record from an "authorized technician", Bob's family could make the claim that the faulty item "came like that" from the manufacturer.
Now, I know you've said in the past that servicing a regulator is not any sort of "magic", and that it can be done by just about anyone with the right tools, but if I were a manufacturer, I'd feel like I was handing a loaded gun to a child.
I work in the computer industry, and people break their computers all the time while trying to fix them. It happens, and at the very worst, they have to buy a new motherboard. With scuba, the "very worst" isn't just a monetary setback.
-Andrew

 

[MikeFerrara]

I though I would expand on something that might be of interest which we haven't really talked about in this thread.

The manufacturers attempt to force equipment owners into shops that sell their goods by preventing others from having the ability to service their equipment.

In general and certainly in the case of aqualung, In order to be an authorized service center you must be a aqualung dealer. That is the only way that you can purchase parts and get repair manuals.

This really hits a chord with me because the shop that was in town for about 20 years prior to my shop sold aqualung almost exclusively. When that shop closed up another shop about 50 miles away made aqualung their primary line. Aqualund refused to let me on as a dealer. They also refused to in any way authorize me to service their products. While I had the connections to get parts and manuals from other sources it's a practice that the insurance compony wasn't willing to go along with. They limit their risk by requireing a shop to follow manufacturers (and certification agency) recommendations and policies.

What effect did that have on the local dive comminity? From Lafayette they had to travel to Indy or Kokomo to get their equipment serviced.

What effect did it have on me? It forced me to turn away the VAST majority of the diver who walked into my shop for the firt 2 years in business because my first contact with them was often when they came in for anual service on all their aqualung equipment.

Oh, and you can bet that many of those divers left angry because they believed that I refused to service their equipment because I wanted them to buy new equipment that I sold.

Carry this over to the automotive industry and it would mean that only GM authorized service centers could buy brakes for a GM product and that in order to be an authorized service center you would also have to be a GM car dealer.

What does that do? It closes down 99% of the service facilities and limits the consumer choices.

The dive equipment manufacturers justufy this by claiming that it's because it's life support equipment and that serviceing it requires special training.

Let me tell you that you can often get credit for this special training over drinks after you cut a check to the manufacturer large enough to cover the opening order. It's total BS.

When there is any trianing conducted it's still usually a joke because it consists of a sales rep taking apart one item out of their line apart and putting it back together in front of you which takes only a few minutes.

With very few acceptions a reg is a reg is a reg when it comes to servicing. Anual service consists of cleaning inspecting and replacing a few standard parts from a kit. The service manuals contain step by step directions that are easier to folloe than assemling a childs toy. So...what few differences exist would be taken care of by having the service manual. Besides that no one would have a problem with spening a few bucks on the training even if it really was needed.

Well this is geting long. Sorry for yet another rant.

I would carve my own regs from wood before I used an aqualung product.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Perhaps, but this is a disturbing concept when you're talking about "life support" systems. Where is the liability if the manufacturer sends Bob some parts and a service manual, and Bob screws it up and gets himself killed? Since there is no service record from an "authorized technician", Bob's family could make the claim that the faulty item "came like that" from the manufacturer.
Now, I know you've said in the past that servicing a regulator is not any sort of "magic", and that it can be done by just about anyone with the right tools, but if I were a manufacturer, I'd feel like I was handing a loaded gun to a child.
I work in the computer industry, and people break their computers all the time while trying to fix them. It happens, and at the very worst, they have to buy a new motherboard. With scuba, the "very worst" isn't just a monetary setback.
-Andrew

This is a red hering if ever there was one. Do you think there's some risk if you screw up putting brakes on your car?

If a reg is put together wrong you will see it when you test it prior to a dive. Do you really think that it's just going to stop working in the middle of a dive and kill you? This arguement is just part of the CON. It's been repeated so orten that people just accept it as truth.

 

[redacted]

Perhaps, but this is a disturbing concept when you're talking about "life support" systems. Where is the liability if the manufacturer sends Bob some parts and a service manual, and Bob screws it up and gets himself killed?

Should be the same place it is when Joe Bob (he's from TEXAS) does his brake job underneath the live-oak tree in his front yard (still TX) and then collides head on with the church van killing 6 folks not including himself. It's not the auto manufacturer, the parts supplier, or Chilton's.

 

[fashionablylate]

This is a red hering if ever there was one. Do you really think that it's just going to stop working in the middle of a dive and kill you? This arguement is just part of the CON. It's been repeated so orten that people just accept it as truth.

No question about it -- my post was made completely ignorant of how things operate within the mechanics of the regulator. As far as I knew (know), it's entirely possible that you could be swimming along and find that it suddenly stops working. Why else would DIR push regulators that can be taken apart and serviced in the water? I assumed it's because it's possible for it to just...stop working in the middle of a dive.
Now I'm almost curious enough to take apart my regulator and see what's inside, but I'm also thinking...it'd suck to have to bring my LDS a handful of parts and say, "Whoops?"
-Andrew

 

[fashionablylate]

Should be the same place it is when Joe Bob (he's from TEXAS) does his brake job underneath the live-oak tree in his front yard (still TX) and then collides head on with the church van killing 6 folks not including himself. It's not the auto manufacturer, the parts supplier, or Chilton's.

The van driver, for being inattentive?

 

[MikeFerrara]

Take it for what it's worth.

I've talked about how dive training is often used as a loss leader to sell equipment and now we've talked about service policies and warrenties but how do you think this thing developed in the first place?

Note that the co-founder of the largest certification agancy in the world was also the VP of Aqualung for many years.

Start connecting the dots and what do you get.

Does the agency gain by low training costs (more divers certified)? Yes. They get the certification fee one way or the other.

Does the manufacturer gain if cheap classes sell equipment? Yes.

Now, what do you think if it's the same guy running both?

The intentions may not have been all bad. They wanted divers to have access to the whole package in one place. that was no doubt good for the agency, manufacturer and divers especially in the beginning when the industry was much smaller. After all who would buy equipment if there wasn't any training available near by?

But...do you think some one also wanted to prevent the local sporting goods store or hardware store from selling equipment? Existing policies effectively do that unless the hardware store also wants to offer training, maintain a compressor, have a dive shop insurance policy and buy dive equipment in large quantities.

These policies are a willfull barier to entry for the business person whether it be a technician, instructor who wants to sell equipment or a merchant.

It's a willful attempt to control competition and the choices of the consumer.

Now that there are a few non-authorized dealers selling the equipment, what often happens to the consumer when they need service? They get punished (extra charges), maybe service is even refused and they're told they're risking their life by buying equipmet where they choose to.

Even if a shop doesn't pull that stuff on you, unless you buy a brand from LP that the shop sells they can't service it even if they want to so you have to run around finding some one who can/will and you are forced to use one of them regardless of who you might wish to give your business to.

Personally I will not buy any piece of equipment unless I can get parts and manuals for.

Another very interesting point here is that I have never seen any dealer agreement that has language preventing a dive shop from selling parts. So while the manufacturer won't sell them to you a shop could if they wanted to.

Just for kicks go into your local shop and ask for service kit for your reg and see what happens. Then ask to see a copy of the policy that they will claim prevents them from selling it.

 

[MikeFerrara]

As far as I knew (know), it's entirely possible that you could be swimming along and find that it suddenly stops working. Why else would DIR push regulators that can be taken apart and serviced in the water?

It's primarily because the reg can get fouled by mud, sand, sticks or whatever entering the exhaust port. This shouldn't be a big issue in OW but in cave diving stages and decompression bottles are often dropped and left to be picked up later. Sometimes a diver will squeeze through a restriction dragging everything through the sand, silt or mud. Sometimes tanks are staged prior to the real dive and left for long periods of time. Bottles placed as safeties may be there a whole season or longer through floods and who knows what else. You check them on the way in. If they were burried and fouled, you pop it open, clear it, check it and leave it without having to carry it all the way out and bring in a replacement.

It's also handy to be able to swap second stages if needed. Again this most useful when you have enough bottles/regs to have some that can be swapped out.

You aren't going to do much af a repair during a dive especially with heavy gloves on although you could stick your finger in and scoop out a bunch of mud and get things working again.