Local dive shop in Venice CA, refuses to fill tanks

[RonDawg]

Many good things have been posted about the mega SC. I do not know them personally but are they the walmart of Scuba?

They are the closest thing that California has to the "WalMart of SCUBA." They have numerous stores throughout the state plus one just outside of Las Vegas.

Someone else pointed out they are "a sporting goods store that happens to carry some dive equipment." To some extent that is true, but if you visit their website you will also find out how the original founder was one of the earliest retailers of SCUBA equipment.

Like them or not, they do provide the best of both worlds: the personalized service of an LDS, plus more competitive pricing (sometimes they beat even Leisure Pro) that comes with being a large-scale retailer. Whether or not each facet is to your satisfaction of course will differ depending on the store and clerk. "Your mileage may vary."

 

[caveseeker7]

Then stay away from Reef Seekers as well.
They have a strict no-nitrox policy on any of their charters.

Their charter policies are pretty bad, they only allow single tanks, too.

Never mind the physiological benefits of O2 enriched air or redundant systems ... that's why I don't dive with them.

Never fails to amaze me that those neanderthals allow single stage regulators.
Probably because Aqualung refuses to sell the Mentor to the public ... .

Nevertheless, air fills are free.

 

[nlbford]

Their charter policies are pretty bad, they only allow single tanks, too.

I have dove with them for years and never heard that ever mentioned or seen it come up. That is certainly not a policy covered in their pre-dive briefings (unless new). Though that doesn't mean that it hasn't and it is their policy.

I have dived with a pony on many occasions, though granted that is far different than doubles.

As for "bad" charter policies . . . apparently different than what you would like to dive with is "bad". Whatever.

I hate going with some groups because they are either so hunter heavy that I find it distatsteful, or so full of techie divers that there is an air of disdain for those who don't do mix. Or just plain clicky because they are a "club". But I wouldn't call those charters "bad", just not my cup of tea.

I have always found them to be very "good" in the sense that it is always a good group (can't tell you how many trips I have been on with other groups that are filled with arrogant aholes and unconcientious divers), they are very accomodating with solo diving if they know you and are always on the ball and willing to help - as opposed to other groups who seem that they wouldn't even notice if you didn't return from a dive. They are always amenable to altering the plan to the groups liking if possible rather than so many trips that are "we are going here - even if the conditions stink - so deal with it. They are also very camera savy and more than accomodating in that regard. Plus I have not seen a group that tries so hard to help divers with equipment problems when they can as oppossed to other trips where the people on the boat kind of look over and go "bummer dude. No more dives for you I guess."

So if "bad" means not going to do things the way YOU want, sure they are "bad" and you should definitiely dive with someone else.

But labelling them "bad" because they don't do things the way you want it is pretty unfair.

Personally after many trips on a variety of boats and groups in SoCal, when I dive at home my first choice is with them (unless I want to go to and area they don't go . . . and unvariably I always think "this trip would have been more enjoyable if it had been Reef Seekers trip).

So yea, if you are the type who absolutely has to be accomodated in having you way outside their policies they are "bad" for you and move on. But I wouldn't label them a "bad" charter group for such a selfserving reason.

 

[padiscubapro]

I have dove with them for years and never heard that ever mentioned or seen it come up. That is certainly not a policy covered in their pre-dive briefings (unless new). Though that doesn't mean that it hasn't and it is their policy.

I have dived with a pony on many occasions, though granted that is far different than doubles.

As for "bad" charter policies . . . apparently different than what you would like to dive with is "bad". Whatever.

I hate going with some groups because they are either so hunter heavy that I find it distatsteful, or so full of techie divers that there is an air of disdain for those who don't do mix. Or just plain clicky because they are a "club". But I wouldn't call those charters "bad", just not my cup of tea.

I have always found them to be very "good" in the sense that it is always a good group (can't tell you how many trips I have been on with other groups that are filled with arrogant aholes and unconcientious divers), they are very accomodating with solo diving if they know you and are always on the ball and willing to help - as opposed to other groups who seem that they wouldn't even notice if you didn't return from a dive. They are always amenable to altering the plan to the groups liking if possible rather than so many trips that are "we are going here - even if the conditions stink - so deal with it. They are also very camera savy and more than accomodating in that regard. Plus I have not seen a group that tries so hard to help divers with equipment problems when they can as oppossed to other trips where the people on the boat kind of look over and go "bummer dude. No more dives for you I guess."

So if "bad" means not going to do things the way YOU want, sure they are "bad" and you should definitiely dive with someone else.

But labelling them "bad" because they don't do things the way you want it is pretty unfair.

Personally after many trips on a variety of boats and groups in SoCal, when I dive at home my first choice is with them (unless I want to go to and area they don't go . . . and unvariably I always think "this trip would have been more enjoyable if it had been Reef Seekers trip).

So yea, if you are the type who absolutely has to be accomodated in having you way outside their policies they are "bad" for you and move on. But I wouldn't label them a "bad" charter group for such a selfserving reason.

No allowing nitrox is a bad policy.. from a physiology stand point the worse gas you can breathe is air for diving.. Nitrox has many benefits and few drawbacks.. If the sites have hard bottoms (not a wall or pinacle) then the depth issue is also removed.

In my opinion its a form of control since they don;t sell nitrox, its a way of keeping them from their competitors.

 

[nlbford]

No allowing nitrox is a bad policy.. from a physiology stand point the worse gas you can breathe is air for diving.. Nitrox has many benefits and few drawbacks.. If the sites have hard bottoms (not a wall or pinacle) then the depth issue is also removed.

In my opinion its a form of control since they don;t sell nitrox, its a way of keeping them from their competitors.

Again . . . it's a portion of overall their policy different from your approach. That doesn't make it "bad" policy. I suppose one could look at an operation that allows you dive with whatever you want but will leave you at a dive site and mark you in water at the next site even though you never made it there is "good" simply because it accomodates you.

You state yourself there are drawbacks to nitrox. You also state that air is the worse gas you could dive on but ignore that if used correctly and within limits it is not unsafe - paricularly when you go by your scenarion of hard bottoms where depth isn't an issue. Both gases are safe if used correctly. I have heard Ken's philosophical arguments for not utilizing nitrox at his company and I understand them. He just feels that it is not something he wants his shop to practice and doesn't pretend to state that others are "wrong" for going that route. One thing that often gets overlooked is that many state that nitrox is "safer" and then either neglect to point out that some sfaety margins become much more rigid or that often people use that "safety" as an excuse or go ahead to push safe limits.

The impression that Reef Seekers is "bad' because of a policy they view as reasonable and with in their view of safety while ignoring that all other aspects of their trips are very firmly grounded in safety and service and contientious and enjoyable diving is again very unfair. I would rather dive with that group, who I know is placing my safety at the top of their list as oppossed to other operations who pretend safety is their goal by putting hard limits on what they allow while allowing gases yet not really paying attention to who is doing what on the boat.

If you don't like their approach to gases, don't dive with them In fact, get the word out to others that they don't allow it so others aren't caught by surprise. Just don't label it as "bad" policy because it isn't when viewed in unbaied and overall sense.

As for your rather undecipherable reference to "keeping them"from their competition, I hardly see what you could possibly mean. I have purchased from them and dived from them for awhile and they have never been more open about the fact that they know there are other options for both and more than encourage people to utilize them if they don't like what Reef Seekers provides. The last theing they are is afraid of competition. They have their niche and are happy with it and if you aren't they readily accept that and encourage you to pursue options more inkeeping with your philosophies. And I don't blame them for not worrying about competition because in my experince with their service and attitude they have nothing to fear because they have a great deal of positives in both.

 

[caveseeker7]

That is certainly not a policy covered in their pre-dive briefings (unless new).

No Nitrox and not more than one tank are are their policies, and have been for several years at least.
Feel free to call the store and check, they also have it about once a year in their newsletter.

...though granted that is far different than doubles.

I wasn't talking about double 130s here.
I doubt anybody would haul those around for sh!ts and giggles, and I agree that they have no business on their boats because the window for each dive won't allow deco diving.
No problem here.

But if they say that twin 45s can't go (the twins give you redundant tanks, valves and regs) or a tripple 40 set-up (with an additional 40 like a pony, giving you 80cu.ft. of gas plus 50% bailout) I disagree. I dive self-sufficient when I'm going solo, and believe I need to be in order to make a good and usefull dive buddy.

I hate going with some groups because they are either so hunter heavy that I find it distatsteful, or so full of techie divers that there is an air of disdain for those who don't do mix.

So do I.

I have always found them to be very "good" in the sense that it is always a good group (can't tell you how many trips I have been on with other groups that are filled with arrogant aholes and unconcientious divers)

My comments were regarding the policies, not Reefseekers' crew or clientel. All the ones I've met were nice enough people to spend time with. I did two Chamber Day trips on Reefseekers' charter and had a good time, no doubt.

On the second dive of the second trip my octopuss started freeflowing, I spend the safety stop buddy breathing before surfacing. Case in point. Wouldn't have been an issue with redundant gas supply, and I was lucky to dive with John Lumb, one of their dive instructors.

That was my last dive with them. No matter how attentive, nice and safety concious they are.

... they are very accomodating with solo diving if they know you ... They are also very camera savy and more than accomodating in that regard.

Those two frequently go hand-in-hand, don't they?
If you dive solo you should be trained and equiped to do so.
That means redundant gas supply, from tank to 2nd stage.
The tripple 40s I mentioned above (from Dolphin Divers in Arcadia, by the way) are absolutely perfect for solo rec diving.

Even if you do photography with a same-ocean buddy rather than a buddy that has a safety diver state-of-mind, concentrating on your subject rather than your gas supply, redundancy is a good idea.

I'm aware that Reefseeker is very safety concious, which why those policies don't make much sense. A redundant gas supply and a diver who knows how to use it properly dives safer.

That aside, it's kind of insulting when they let divers they "know" go solo without proper training and equipment, yet argue that I can't read my watch and be back on the boat in time just because my gas supply could last longer. I've got certified 20 years ago so one may think I'm doing something right ... and yes, they "know" me.

Finally, if you don't believe that Nitrox is a benefit head right over to DAN's website, or see if you can sit in a class.

 

[nlbford]

Finally, if you don't believe that Nitrox is a benefit head right over to DAN's website, or see if you can sit in a class.

I didn't say their aren't benefits or that it is an appropriate choice for some. My POINT is that labelling a group "bad" because they have a different philosophy is unfair - particularly when other positives go unmentioned. Same thing for if there was a boat that forbids the use of compressed air and only allowed Nirtox. It would be unfair for me to label them "bad" or unsafe because they forbid me to dive compressed air in a safe and reasonable fashion. I simply would say that group is not conducive to my diving style and would look elsewhere and not spend my time labeling their policies as "bad".

And the insinuation that any company that embraces nitrox is "good" is equally incorrect. Just look at the enterprise that inspired this thread. They embrace Nitrox yet ban customers from their shop for not buying from them - that would be "bad" policy if you ask me.

In my experience I have never seen anyone who is of the compressed air camp rally against nitrox people with any venom or vigor, they just say it isn't for me. I have seen numerous nitrox fox vehemently protest against the compressed air group and speak negatively of the approach. I always found that very interesting and quite telling.

The big difference here is that we have one group saying another is "bad" because they don't allow a particular approach while we have another group who simply says that the other approach is not what they do and makes no qualitataive judgements about it.

 

[nlbford]

That aside, it's kind of insulting when they let divers they "know" go solo without proper training and equipment,

And what makes you think that is the case? If they are aware of your skill levels training and eqipment (thus "known" it), they MAY permit it.

yet argue that I can't read my watch and be back on the boat in time just because my gas supply could last longer.

I know the reasons for their policy, and that is not even remotely their argument. If it were their sole argument, they wouldn't allow any diving because they are well aware that air divers have been and will be late as well.

I've got certified 20 years ago so one may think I'm doing something right ... and yes, they "know" me.

They aren't saying you aren't doing anything "right". They simply say it is not a type of diving they run on their boats. The only one saying anyone is "wrong" or "Bad" is you and the nitrox folk.

 

[caveseeker7]

My POINT is that labelling a group "bad" because they have a different philosophy is unfair - particularly when other positives go unmentioned.

First and for the last friggin' time, I didn't say the group (or people) are bad, I said the policy is.

Second, I did let divers know that they offer air fills for free, which is a good thing.

Third, other positives didn't go unmentioned, I posted I enjoyed the company both in the store and on trips, and agreed that in general they are safety concious. Especially the dive masters. I do have negatives regarding the service that I did not post publicly, nor do I intend to.

I really don't give a damn what anybody else breathes underwater, or what they breath it from. I never questioned anyone's choice of gas (unless it's wrong for the profile MOD/END), nor do I judge anyone diving air or mixed gases.

I do judge people that restrict my choice of gases though.
Because I care very much what I breath, and what I breath from.
As detailed in my last post, I consider it a safety issue, and since I'm resposible for mine, and it is mine that is at stake, I prefer not to dive with them.

That's all there is to it. Ken, Billy and several others in the store know my point of view, I know theirs, we dive different boats.

Doesn't mean we don't get along, I swing by the store when I'm in their neighborhood and every once in a while make a purchase there, too.

 

[caveseeker7]

If they are aware of your skill levels training and eqipment (thus "known" it), they MAY permit it.

Nope.

The Nitrox, by the way, is less of an issue because their boats usually don't offer it, so I wouldn't take a Nitrox clean equipment onboard anyway.

{longer gas supply}
I know the reasons for their policy, and that is not even remotely their argument.

Maybe not "theirs", but it was Billy's in at least two conversations I remember.