Lost Buddy Marker

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

I know a few that have had 2 lights fail on a dive, thats why I opt for more than I really need. I would rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. It seems that when something does go wrong Murphy's Law likes to show up in more than one place.
I also replace my batteries every 6 months (label them with tape & date replaced), as well as check them before every dive. Also I notice a lot of guys using lights with switches, which is a known no-no in the cave diving community, but often times they're cheaper than a halcyon scout or salvo rat, and I think people lean towards them because of that, or because they use over driven bulbs that are brighter as a selling point, when even a cheap halogen backup will get you safely out of the cave (swimming at least).

Every failed backup light I've heard of has been because of a switch or failure to replace batteries as you should. *MOST* primary failures I've heard about are a direct result of not knowing how long you can push a battery burn time without a recharge (I learned this the hard way).

However, if you don't trust 2 backups, then I would recommend bringing as many as you need, since we all know that the most common failure is a human brain, and stress/uncertainty seems to trigger that failure!
 
I have one on my harness and the other 2 are in drysuit pockets. I have a pinnacle with large pockets. They are very easy to get to.

I know a few that have had 2 lights fail on a dive, thats why I opt for more than I really need. I would rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. It seems that when something does go wrong Murphy's Law likes to show up in more than one place.

Are you able to turn the lights in your pocket on before you deploy them?
 
Are you able to turn the lights in your pocket on before you deploy them?

If I needed to I guess I could. They are both clipped in the pocket so they dont accidentially get dropped, but after a few hundred practice deployments I am very comfy with my setup.. Only thing I might change is add a mask light. Everyone I know that is using them loves it.
 
If I needed to I guess I could. They are both clipped in the pocket so they dont accidentially get dropped, but after a few hundred practice deployments I am very comfy with my setup.. Only thing I might change is add a mask light. Everyone I know that is using them loves it.

That was kind of my point. I was always taught turn the light on before deploying it, because if you accidentally dropped it, it could be a bitch to find.
 
That was kind of my point. I was always taught turn the light on before deploying it, because if you accidentally dropped it, it could be a bitch to find.


Thats exactly why I have more than I need. Kinda like the safety reel. I never go in with out 2 dedicated for emergencies only.
 
Thats exactly why I have more than I need. Kinda like the safety reel. I never go in with out 2 dedicated for emergencies only.

Ok, let me preface this with the fact that I'm not trying to be argumentative or insulting, just understand your view point.

Isn't this trying to fix a skills issue with an equipment solution. (i.e. carrying an extra light, so that if you drop one before you turn it on, you have something to search for it with.) Wouldn't it be easier to turn the light on, then unclip/deploy it?
 
Let me pass this by you all and of course feel free to comment. It has been somewhat suggested already early in this thread but not quite how I would agree to using something like this. I do use this cookie and I will explain why. See thumbnail picture below

Personal Line Arrows:

I do not believe that arrows should ever be placed in any orientation other then pointing towards an exit. This applies even when the exit may not be the one of which you entered from. Example: As in the case of Peacock to Olsen where the line arrows change past the halfway mark (opposing arrows) you would adjust your orientation to reflect the exit when and if you place an arrow. Problem here is, that you should not assume that a diver has proven the exit hense Cave Situational Awareness, Line Awareness etc is an important part of cave diving, a skill that must be developed.

So I would place an arrow towards Olsen's or Peacock's Exit appropriately with consistency of the main navigational arrows and still exit the proven known path out. This simple rule, I can apply to cave systems I know and do not know. When applied in conjunction with other cave diving rules such as gas limits I should always be able to get back to the exit or entry starting point, an exit I have proven. If I have proven the complete cave system of connecting exits then I can exit the known route to the shortest swim exit point. I know Peacock, Pothole and Olsen's Sink, Thus I can then choose to exit at any of the three exit points subject to the emergency requirement. I do not know (example)The Black Bay system , therefore I will only exit where I have have proven the exit path. Until I learn a cave system better I will only go to the guaranteed known exit.

My dive buddies hopefully can still find and see my arrow. If the arrow is pointing to an exit of which they have not proven themselves then they will exit the system along the passage they do know. This way my arrow simply tells them I have left the cave system and marks my relative cave position of penetration. They decide what exit they will take.

In this manner, I have maintained line arrow consistency, have not placed a directional device incorrectly possibly causing disorientation to another dive team or diver, my buddy.

By maintaining cave situational awareness I have reduced the disorientation element. My dive buddy through cave situational awareness has been reconfirmed to the cave and will decide his exit path.(which is even more important then finding me)

(Cave situational awareness = Cave configuration and outstanding features, line placement and path, penetration distance, time status, gas status, buddy awareness (position and equipment), communication awareness (light, line, hand, touch, equipment),bottom composition, current flow to name a few points)

Cookies:

Whether it is lost buddy or a point of reached penetration I can use an arrow as mentioned above or I can use a cookie (non-directional marker).

The cookie marks our point of penetration. In a traverse this can be used to confirm exits thus proving the cave passage to either exit. It can be used at T or Y junctions to mark the penetration line used, again the path to a known exit. It can be used to distinguish my reel from another one and many other uses.

In the context of a lost buddy marker. It anchors my search line, It tells MY TEAM mates I was here and by the hand drawn arrow (team communication) which direction I went without interferring with the main line arrows navigation exit orientation. In a dark lights out passage it doesn't matter that you can see my drawn arrow or not, the cookie doesn't confuse navigation when compared to other arrows. The cookie is a multi-use tool but should never be casusing confusion to navigation. It's use MUST be communicated before the dive as to its application to the dive team you are with.

The arrow vs the cookie - both can be used equally but the arrow if used incorrectly can lead to catastrophic results.

The Safety Reel:

Clip method is used by many and quite successfully I may add. When I see this clip arrangement I undertsand its meaning. I was exposed to it and undertsand this method of communication with it.

Do I use this method? No, by personal choice

I believe the consistency of the reel clip should be maintained. The clip always coming back onto the reels own line. In most instances the clip will be oriented to the exit, be that of a jump, primary reel tie off. Even in a lost line drill you are referred back to your tie off point ( you again have reference) and if you are secured back onto the main cave line then you can make a decission as to what direction to go. If not the main cave line then you may have several additional choices to make to exit the system. It's all about having reference and cave situational awareness.

The point here is to make a choice, don't delay use your cave situational awareness factors to help, it only takes a second - pick a direction using that refeence and go. Your buddy having team awareness of your equipment may still see your reel (unless dark and then by feel he will confirm) and know its yours. If he is on the same line you will either bump into him or be moving away from him. The important thing here is that you exit and he exits you do not have to be together, but it is best to be.

CAN you still do a lost buddy search? YES this is what cave situational awareness is all about. Do you still have gas and time available to do a search? Do you still have the equipment (lights) to do a search? The bottom line is you must make a decission, conduct your risk assessment and then under control, act upon that decission but never to the extent that it reduces YOUR ability to safely exit the cave.

While I do not completely disagree with the use of the clip communication method I prefer not to use or teach it.

In the end you as the cave diver must do what works to get YOU out of the cave in an emergency situation. How you mark your presense and or intent and action to a lost dive buddy must be communicated and understood and agreed to before the dive to the team as a whole. It must never cause the potential to confuse cave navigation placing your dive team or others at a greater risk.

Cave diving is about exploration, and comradship. It requires the ability to make decissions based on risk assessment and acceptance. The challenge to control ones state of mind over the environment. In the end you are solely responsible in this very social activity.
 

Attachments

  • cookie.jpg
    cookie.jpg
    115.8 KB · Views: 107
Last edited:
Ok, let me preface this with the fact that I'm not trying to be argumentative or insulting, just understand your view point.

Isn't this trying to fix a skills issue with an equipment solution. (i.e. carrying an extra light, so that if you drop one before you turn it on, you have something to search for it with.) Wouldn't it be easier to turn the light on, then unclip/deploy it?


I know where your coming from, didnt take it as insulting.. I do have it on before it is unclipped.. At first they were just in my pocket. But then I had an epiphany in Hole in the Wall where I was 40ft off the bottom and thought what if I needed it and dropped it.. Changed my thinking.
 
I do not believe that arrows should ever be placed in any orientation other then pointing towards an exit. This applies even when the exit may not be the one of which you entered from. Example: As in the case of Peacock to Olsen where the line arrows change past the halfway mark (opposing arrows) you would adjust your orientation to reflect the exit when and if you place an arrow.

So I would place an arrow towards Olsen's or Peacock's Exit appropriately with consistency of the main navigational arrows and still exit the proven known path out. This simple rule, I can apply to cave systems I know and do not know.


So in a system where you only know one exit that isn’t the closest any more, you would be totally OK dropping an arrow consistent with the cave arrows, then going against your arrow - but leaving it behind for your buddy to find and believe you went where you didn’t?

That is how I am reading you, and it kind of spooks me a bit. Particularly looking back at the comments made about systems where cave arrows can be far apart, and where my personal arrow might be the first thing my poor buddy hits AND RECOGNIZES after sucking down his/her gas all lost - and where “the closest” other exit might end up being for sidemounters etc. Sounds like I'd rather leave no arrow if I have nothing else to leave than lead buddy into that kind of boggle.
 
Let me pass this by you all and of course feel free to comment. It has been somewhat suggested already early in this thread but not quite how I would agree to using something like this. I do use this cookie and I will explain why. See thumbnail picture below

I sort of mostly agree, except with the use of cookies. I will basically use a cookie for almost everything, as they are the least likely to mess up the navigation of the cave.

Even though a cookie by itself is non-directional, I can "make" it directional by placing it relative to something (relative to a jump line, an arrow etc)

I would use an arrow for

- unmarked jump (putting a cookie on *my* exit side if its going the opposite way)
- lost buddy search
- repairing a line
- for survey, we used them to mark side-passages or points of interest

cookies get used for most everything else
- exit side of a T
- exit side of a jump
- to mark the exit (my exit) side of the first arrow I encounter that goes "against" my entrance (i.e. the arrow points into the cave)
- marking the middle of a circuit (although i have a special one for that)
- lost line, to mark the way I swam

I would really really try to avoid putting in an arrow inconsistent with the current arrows in the cave.
 
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

Back
Top Bottom