Lost Diver at Mill Pond Rescued

[MXGratefulDiver]

I don't think the cave tourist versus local zip code diver thing is the issue. If someone has been there before and can show you the way, it's just prudent to take advantage of that resource. We will whenever possible arrange to dive with someone who'e been somewhere before to familiarize ourself with a particular cave our passage.

In the absence of that, we at least consult available maps and talk to divers who are familiar with the planned route.

And in the absence of that, we use what amounts to a very conservative progressive penetration approach to new (or new to us) cave so that we're familiar not only with getting in, but getting out - something that's even more important in side mount where the time it takes going through a restriction one way can be longer than going the other way.

... and that's exactly what I'm talking about. Had those guys done that, they wouldn't have accidentally blundered into the wrong part of the cave ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Have you ever attempted this?

Yes I have.

Now, a qualifier here is that I spent about 15 years doing zero viz (as in can't see a hand placed on your mask) inland commercial dive work before getting into cave diving. And while I totally agree no amount of OW experience will prepare you for cave diving, several hundred hours of working in zero viz conditions sure increases your comfort level and orientation/awareness skills in zero viz.

However, you folks are picking at semantics and you know it. Whether you are actually able to successfully complete a fix it by tying into the lost line when you find it, each and everyone of you are going to go looking for that lost exit side of the line rather than go wandering off in some unknown direction, because you just aren't that stupid, and that's exactly the point behind the discussion of what did not happen in this most recent millpond incident.

Much easier said than done. A.J and James are right. Once this happens you need luck and patience. Way easy to type stuff and sound like a rock star cave diver. Doesn't work so well in the real world.

I totally agree - with everything other than your implied assumption.

---------- Post Merged at 11:18 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 11:11 AM ----------

About 2 years ago I was diving a river cave, went through a sm passage with a bottle ahead of me (small). Once I passed the restriction, my reg started free flowing, so I quickly shut it down, losing my balance in the process since the rear of the tank was not yet clipped off. I was over clay, which started zero'ing the visibility so I lurched for the line, snapping it. I sat there, waiting for the vis to clear, but there just wasn't enough flow, and when I felt along the bottom it just made it worse. At this point, I still had the line leading further into the cave in my hand, so I tied my spool into it so at least that wouldn't slip. At that point I had realized that the line was likely somewhere in the silt, on the bottom, where my only chances of finding it would mean making vis even worse. Luckily my buddy was behind me, and kept his light pointed my way for nearly 5 minutes (seemed longer, but the computer download said otherwise) and I finally saw the glow once I thought to cover my light and let my eyes adjust.

If you think you're finding a broke line in real life in something that isn't large cave with decent viz, you're likely wrong. Prevention, luck, and hoping your buddy is on the other side of the break are the only ways of dealing with it.

James, tell me what you learned from your analysis of this event after the fact. Hopefully you learned something about priorities and how haste and/or a lack of finesse (maybe even incipient panic) can make a bad situation a lot worse. Feel free to share.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

Its not an assumption and you know it.

 

[Jax]

Have you ever attempted this?

About 2 years ago I was diving a river cave, went through a sm passage with a bottle ahead of me (small). Once I passed the restriction, my reg started free flowing, so I quickly shut it down, losing my balance in the process since the rear of the tank was not yet clipped off. I was over clay, which started zero'ing the visibility so I lurched for the line, snapping it. I sat there, waiting for the vis to clear, but there just wasn't enough flow, and when I felt along the bottom it just made it worse. At this point, I still had the line leading further into the cave in my hand, so I tied my spool into it so at least that wouldn't slip. At that point I had realized that the line was likely somewhere in the silt, on the bottom, where my only chances of finding it would mean making vis even worse. Luckily my buddy was behind me, and kept his light pointed my way for nearly 5 minutes (seemed longer, but the computer download said otherwise) and I finally saw the glow once I thought to cover my light and let my eyes adjust.

If you think you're finding a broke line in real life in something that isn't large cave with decent viz, you're likely wrong. Prevention, luck, and hoping your buddy is on the other side of the break are the only ways of dealing with it.

Thank you. This is something to learn from.

 

[PfcAJ]

Yes I have.

Now, a qualifier here is that I spent about 15 years doing zero viz (as in can't see a hand placed on your mask) inland commercial dive work before getting into cave diving. And while I totally agree no amount of OW experience will prepare you for cave diving, several hundred hours of working in zero viz conditions sure increases your comfort level and orientation/awareness skills in zero viz.

Like an open water type thing?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Have you ever attempted this?

About 2 years ago I was diving a river cave, went through a sm passage with a bottle ahead of me (small). Once I passed the restriction, my reg started free flowing, so I quickly shut it down, losing my balance in the process since the rear of the tank was not yet clipped off. I was over clay, which started zero'ing the visibility so I lurched for the line, snapping it. I sat there, waiting for the vis to clear, but there just wasn't enough flow, and when I felt along the bottom it just made it worse. At this point, I still had the line leading further into the cave in my hand, so I tied my spool into it so at least that wouldn't slip. At that point I had realized that the line was likely somewhere in the silt, on the bottom, where my only chances of finding it would mean making vis even worse. Luckily my buddy was behind me, and kept his light pointed my way for nearly 5 minutes (seemed longer, but the computer download said otherwise) and I finally saw the glow once I thought to cover my light and let my eyes adjust.

If you think you're finding a broke line in real life in something that isn't large cave with decent viz, you're likely wrong. Prevention, luck, and hoping your buddy is on the other side of the break are the only ways of dealing with it.

Just curious ... what would you do if your buddy was ahead of you going in ... and now on the side of the line leading further into the cave? I imagine it depends on circumstances ... but what would you consider viable options?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[LiteHedded]

Just curious ... what would you do if your buddy was ahead of you going in ... and now on the side of the line leading further into the cave? I imagine it depends on circumstances ... but what would you consider viable options?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

our situation was like that. I was on the other side of the 'break' and aj was behind me. he fixed it, i noticed after a bit he wasn't behind me and when I got back to him he had already fixed it.
our situation was a bit unique though as it was an exploration dive. changes things a bit

 

[PfcAJ]

Story time: I just was surveying along, minding my own business. My fin grazed the line and it went slack. "Oh, I'll just tighten it up a bit at the next convenient rock". I pulled on it a bit to snug it up, and it just kept coming and coming. No bueno, senor. Vis was already awful, and things like that don't tend to get better by a bunch of dillydallying. I made the exec decision to go fix it stat. I clipped off the wetnotes to the line and went into the silt cloud behind me holding the end of the line. I knew the cave and the survey (since I just did it like 3mins ago) and found the point where we tied into our previous exploration line, which had disintegrated. The rocks in this particular cave are a bit...mushy...and when the rock tie off collapsed, the tie-in came apart. I saw Brian tie in, so I know it was legit. Beats me as to exactly how the entire thing unraveled, but it did. I only found it so fast by being methodical having a good mental map of the cave, and managing that slack line the best I could. Getting entangled in it somehow would be really bad. Total separation between the two lines was maybe 20-30ft, if not a little less. The entire episode only took a few mins (then it was back to survey/exploration), but it seemed like a lot longer.

A lot of the exits (and some entries) in this particular cave are braille, which really hammers home how critical line is. We all learn it in class, but its something else when you have to genuinely rely on the line to get home. Some of the most important lessons in cave diving are learned by needing to use the skills taught in class, imo. Gradual build up of experience and critical judgement are things to think about. If you have to ask 'am I ready for this', the answer is probably 'no'.

TL;DR Line. It's important.

 

[JamesK]

If you have to ask 'am I ready for this', the answer is probably 'no'.

amen.

 

[ucfdiver]

Just curious ... what would you do if your buddy was ahead of you going in ... and now on the side of the line leading further into the cave? I imagine it depends on circumstances ... but what would you consider viable options?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

At that point, I would tie into the line, tie off as soon as possible (so I don't move the line from where he expects it) and head in the direction I believe he's going, spending as much time looking as I would if it were a lost buddy situation. Leaving a light on the line wouldn't be a terrible idea as light stands out more than the line does, but I would have to accept that he might leave the cave thinking I was trying to tell him I had left the cave, and him leaving.

James, tell me what you learned from your analysis of this event after the fact. Hopefully you learned something about priorities and how haste and/or a lack of finesse (maybe even incipient panic) can make a bad situation a lot worse. Feel free to share.

Let's see, what did I learn:

• Team diving has benefits you don't even think about when you get in the water. Reenforced my desire to never solo dive, and strongly encourage those I'm friends with and new divers not to as well. Something to consider--this mill pond accident would have been a fatality had the diver been solo.
• In a cave with sharp rock, even line that looks fairly strong can slice, always ensure it's well maintained before going in, or run your own line.
• As for priority, getting on the line is always the right answer. Shutting down a valve doesn't have to be done right that second, and frankly losing the whole tank wouldn't be a huge deal in that situation. It's easier said now that I'm behind a keyboard than in the water, but that's what I would do if the same situation happened again.
• Clip your tank off again before completely leaving the restriction when diving heavy steel tanks, if possible.