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Make Equipment forum a “Flame Free Zone”

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by uncfnp, Apr 21, 2018.

  1. Saniflush

    Saniflush ScubaBoard Supporter ScubaBoard Supporter

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    Speaking as someone who has been here a little over a year I have really enjoyed the difference of opinions concerning various types of gear. It has piqued my interest to go do more research on certain subject/items. I may well be in the minority in that regard but personally I really enjoy it and have never been put off by the discussion.
    Of course I have not usually been the originator of the post and only the benefactor of the discussion. :)
     
    Colliam7 and chillyinCanada like this.
  2. Colliam7

    Colliam7 Tech Instructor Staff Member

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Kents Store, VA
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    YES!! Thank you for saying this. Spirited debate SHOULD be a core ingredient of SB. Where users with differing views articulate the bases for those views, rather than attacking others who hold different views, we all benefit. I have a number of fairly well-developed opinions, that I beleive are informed opinions, about various gear - BCDs, lights, regulator configurations, alternate air sources, etc. BUT, I realize that my opinions are based on what works for me, and what works for me may not be what works for someone else. And, I can still, and frequently do, learn from other users with different opinions, where we are able to share the reasons we think like we do. From that perspective, I don't favor a tightly controlled approach to moderating a equipment forum.

    Humor is fine, even sarcastic humor at times. Bierstadt's post in this thread
    is the kind of humor we need from time to time, so we don't take ourselves too seriously. :)

    Where problems arise, is when users make it personal. You disagree with me, so I am going to attack you, rather than address the substance of your argument / opinion / whatever. 'Well, you wouldn't think that way if you actually had a brain, or knew anything about diving.' Or, 'you're obviously an idiot for doing / thinking / saying that.' That kind of interaction is what leads to moderation, because it usually takes the thread off topic, and turns into a 'pissing match' between two (or more) users, that becomes increasingly tangential to the topic of the thread, and offers no value for other users. It is OK to say, 'Well, let's just agree to disagree on that', and move on. Another moderator and I did that yesterday, for example, and we still can work together, and respect each other.

    Frankly, I sometimes despair at the need for a 'green zone', or a 'flame free zone', in general. We shouldn't need it. But, it seems that we do, particularly when users feel they have to 'win' a difference of opinion.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2018
  3. Blasto

    Blasto Solo Diver

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    Agreed. There is some use for newcomer "safe areas" on a forum - but the Equipment section is too major to dedicate to that sake. One has to recognize that there are drawbacks to "safe zone" policies as well. If you forbid potentially offensive comments (distinct from actual personal attacks). you prevent honest, straight discussion.

    Divers know poodle jackets suck; it can hurt someone who just bought one to hear they've wasted their money. But there's only so many people willing to try and sugarcoat that - and it's better for the new diver to be momentarily hurt by a post dismissive of their purchase than to buy another poodle jacket in three years.

    The use of "safe zones" is to get newbies superficially acquainted with the forum, feel at home, break the ice. But there's too many examples of unsuccessful "safe forums" that prohibited negativity. People only learn when they get emotions on both ends of the spectrum, good and bad; not just a circle of positive reinforcement.
     
  4. lowviz

    lowviz Solo Diver ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Northern Delaware or the New Jersey Turnpike
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    IMHO, it is more about not getting a newbie's face scorched.

    A lot of potential community members come into this site wide-eyed and lacking scar tissue. There should be safe places to enjoy before they dive into the deep end...
     
    The Chairman likes this.
  5. Colliam7

    Colliam7 Tech Instructor Staff Member

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Kents Store, VA
    6,190
    3,272
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    And, I fully agree - I don't want new users / new divers turned off by getting blasted for asking a question, or expressing an opinion. That may well cause them to not come back, and they and other users together lose in that situation. My point was a little different - I would prefer that we didn't have to worry that other users would do that, that we could count on users to be respectful, and stay on topic. But, we know it (flaming) happens, and that's part of the reason we create safe areas.
    Very good point. And, that's where I struggle. 'Honest discussion' should not offend - comments shouldn't be written in a manner that would reasonably cause another to take offense; users shouldn't take disagreement as an attack. But, I know it can easily happen.

    To use your example of a jacket BCD, and the user who just bought one: I won't tell someone that jacket BCDs are useless (heck, I have one that I use in the pool, it might would be somewhat hypocritical if I did), primarily because I really don't believe that they are. They may be suboptimal for my diving (primarily because of buoyancy, and lift and weight distribution characteristics), but I can still use them. However, I have no trouble telling a diver who has just bought one, and asks if they did got the right unit, 'Congratulations on getting your own gear. You will hopefully use it to get wet often. As you develop as a diver, and can better assess what works best for you, if you find that your BCD is not meeting your needs, there may be other options.'
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2018
  6. Akimbo

    Akimbo Lift to Freedom Volunteer Staff Member ScubaBoard Supporter

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    Saying "poodle jackets suck" is not very enlightening, which is what newbie and wannabe divers need. "I don't care for jacket BCs because..." conveys the same opinion with actual justification. It isn't sugar coating, it is educating. It's not like poodle jackets are inherently dangerous.

    I can see why instructors like their students in them and dive shops want to sell them. Who wouldn't prefer a student with marginal watermanship skills and on the verge of panic floating straight-up with their jaw 10" off the water whether they want to or not?
     
  7. diversteve

    diversteve tech admin

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    Actually you sort of just proved the need for a green zone since they don't suck except in your opinion.

    The majority of rental gear is jacket based - shops which use back-inflate for training purposes are a slim minority.

    They work for anyone who likes to be high in the water at the surface and are a cheaper option in many case for shop rental fleets. One model even has a inventory control tag on the right shoulder so it can be scanned quickly in a rental process.

    I actually know two very experienced divers and one DM who are very happy with their jackets. And probably upgraded from a rental at some point. All are members here and could buy anything they wanted. I dive back-inflate myself as I feel it's more stable in a horizontal position but my friends also have excellent control.

    Nothing wrong with stating your opinion but please note it as such to not confuse the newer members we're trying to help.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2018
  8. lowviz

    lowviz Solo Diver ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Northern Delaware or the New Jersey Turnpike
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    Three.

    I bought Dumpsterdiver's ScubaPro Classic. Sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't...
     
  9. aquacat8

    aquacat8 Solo Diver

    # of Dives: 100 - 199
    Location: Savannah, GA
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    I know a local instructor who loves his old Scubapro Classic... he says he is most comfortable in it.
     
  10. lowviz

    lowviz Solo Diver ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Northern Delaware or the New Jersey Turnpike
    6,605
    3,213
    113
    You float like a cork and it isn't all that bad underwater.

    Instructors love having all their students bobbing up and down like little duckies while lecturing on the surface. It is REALLY nice in rough seas. Badass DD used it to make a living harvesting fish. I'm sure he would agree but he seems to be permabanned. Oh well.

    Mine still has a 400# or so loop of nylon leader on the back for stringing fish. I don't need it, it is an entanglement hazard (DIR) but I just don't want to remove it...
     

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