Man rescued from submerged car sues dive team.

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So to sum up what we have learned :

Here is what we have learned. Not much about the story at all. We have no idea what happened at the scene of the accident. We don't know whether a rescue diver whacked an illegal alien over the head with his tank or dove to 100 feet and performed an incredible act of bravery on a lost soul. We don't know if the road should have been closed; Where the guy was or when and how he got to the river. All we have is Fox News' view of the world and are responding to a biased and obviously politically motivated report. I'm not sure how this story broke - I reckon that someone leaked it to the press to help drive "outrage" and "indignation" from the public - all quite successfully too. remember that this is not a lawsuit, only a Notice of Claim - something that is filed prior to a possible lawsuit.

All the comments about stupidity are unfounded and have no basis in fact -until those facts are revealed at trial. This is a classic case of being tried and found guilty in the court of public opinion. Personally I'm glad that we have courts and a system of justice that allows us to pursue claims when we are aggrieved by others.
 
Here is what we have learned. Not much about the story at all. We have no idea what happened at the scene of the accident. We don't know whether a rescue diver whacked an illegal alien over the head with his tank or dove to 100 feet and performed an incredible act of bravery on a lost soul. We don't know if the road should have been closed; Where the guy was or when and how he got to the river. All we have is Fox News' view of the world and are responding to a biased and obviously politically motivated report. I'm not sure how this story broke - I reckon that someone leaked it to the press to help drive "outrage" and "indignation" from the public - all quite successfully too. remember that this is not a lawsuit, only a Notice of Claim - something that is filed prior to a possible lawsuit.

All the comments about stupidity are unfounded and have no basis in fact -until those facts are revealed at trial. This is a classic case of being tried and found guilty in the court of public opinion. Personally I'm glad that we have courts and a system of justice that allows us to pursue claims when we are aggrieved by others.


No. Absolutely incorrect. Now you're even contradicting yourself.
 
Why is this in the PSD section?

---------- Post added March 14th, 2014 at 02:59 PM ----------



Really???

If you can safely and effectively do this, you have an OPEN invitation to come teach my team, because you are FAR better than I am.

And what if this turned out to be a crime scene?

being a crime scene would not change anything about what I said, since preserving evidence would take a lower priority than the rescue. If you aren't able to do what I wrote safely and effectively, you shouldn't be diving on a PSD team.

but like I said, what I wrote was about what I knew about this incident at the time, and was not intended to apply to all situations.
 
being a crime scene would not change anything about what I said, since preserving evidence would take a lower priority than the rescue. If you aren't able to do what I wrote safely and effectively, you shouldn't be diving on a PSD team.

but like I said, what I wrote was about what I knew about this incident at the time, and was not intended to apply to all situations.

I'm not diving on a PSD team, I run the team. I guess my 10 years of experience and education in public safety diving has been outdone by an internet ninja diver. Armed with an internet article.

And being a crime scene would change nothing? You have no idea how ignorant you are sounding. Have you actually ever done anything like this before? Because if you have experience, or PSD education, I'm willing to listen.

My invitation remains open. You type a good dive.
 
I'm not diving on a PSD team, I run the team. I guess my 10 years of experience and education in public safety diving has been outdone by an internet ninja diver. Armed with an internet article.

And being a crime scene would change nothing? You have no idea how ignorant you are sounding. Have you actually ever done anything like this before? Because if you have experience, or PSD education, I'm willing to listen.

My invitation remains open. You type a good dive.

why don't you tell me what you would change about what I wrote if it were a crime scene, and we can go from there
 
why don't you tell me what you would change about what I wrote if it were a crime scene, and we can go from there

There is no right place to start with what you said, Crime Scene or not.
If you're asking what is a proper response to this situation? That question can only be answered by knowing what the scene commander knows when the first diver hits the water.
Among the thing's I'd have to know:
Do we KNOW we have a victim?
Do we have a witness?
Do we know when the car submerged?
If so, when exactly what is my timeframe?
What assets do I have (both personnel and material) and how long before they arrive?

But what is wrong with your response?
1. Communicate to the surface that you made contact and to keep tension on the line holding you in one place
Absolutely a must. Most public safety diver fatalities begin with a slack tether. Hopefully, the car, and your tender are positioned so that you have a minimum of rope adjusting to do as you perform your initial search, but keeping the rope tight while moving while searching a car in a current in 0 vis isn't as easy as it sounds, and you really don't move like an Olympic server, as you're in a drysuit, ffm, and wearing 20lbs of lead. And do you have any clue where to start looking for the car in the first place? Positioning has been known to be adverse, sometimes. And lets not even get into if there are any large obstructions in the way of the recovery.

2. break the glass and look inside -- a person in the car breathing in an air pocket would be likely to grab your arm
I see from your profile that you are a cave diver. Ever been silted out? Ever looked into a car that is underwater in 0 vis that is silted out to see what's inside? In a current? Same thing, but in a current. What kind of debris is in the car? Are there books, toys, CDs and a bunch of other crap floating around everywhere? The only way you are going to look is with your hands. If you want to "look" into that car, you're going in. Which window are you going to break, because it's going to matter.

2a: found someone? call for help
Found someone? Alive and conscious? I'm not calling for help, I'm giving the victim a regulator, and probably calming his ass down so he doesn't kill both of us, in that car in 0 vis, underwater. God, I hope he doesn't think I'm an alligator. Hopefully, my communications don't LOS when I enter the car and I can actually talk to my team still. Can I even fit a third person in this car in 0 vis, underwater, in a current? Supposedly, I'm trained at this. Would another person help or hurt the situation? And, BTW, underwater communications aren't exactly sprint clear, and there tends to be lots of ambient noises, buddy phone noises, and other distractions. Communications under this type of situation is not trivial.

3. stay on the upstream side in case there toxins being released from the car
Ummm. If you're searching the car, you're not staying on the upstream side. What if your victim is on the downstream side? How likely is that, in a current? You can't do half a job and call yourself a professional. You're going to get contaminated on this call. the fire department has excellent decontaminates, and I can usually make a couple of bucks making them pay to hose down my divers. For some reason, they love this.

4. when search is complete, make a brief excursion to the downstream side to check for any bodies
Yeah, might as well take a brief excursion while I'm at it, gotta get at least an hour on the clock. You gonna pull the car?

total time: roughly 2 minutes (after finding the car)...why would you be in a hurry?

I agree. I totally carry a couple of beers in my BC just in case of the odd time out.
 
There is no right place to start with what you said, Crime Scene or not.
If you're asking what is a proper response to this situation? That question can only be answered by knowing what the scene commander knows when the first diver hits the water.
Among the thing's I'd have to know:
Do we KNOW we have a victim?
Do we have a witness?
Do we know when the car submerged?
If so, when exactly what is my timeframe?
What assets do I have (both personnel and material) and how long before they arrive?

But what is wrong with your response?
1. Communicate to the surface that you made contact and to keep tension on the line holding you in one place
Absolutely a must. Most public safety diver fatalities begin with a slack tether. Hopefully, the car, and your tender are positioned so that you have a minimum of rope adjusting to do as you perform your initial search, but keeping the rope tight while moving while searching a car in a current in 0 vis isn't as easy as it sounds, and you really don't move like an Olympic server, as you're in a drysuit, ffm, and wearing 20lbs of lead. And do you have any clue where to start looking for the car in the first place? Positioning has been known to be adverse, sometimes. And lets not even get into if there are any large obstructions in the way of the recovery.

2. break the glass and look inside -- a person in the car breathing in an air pocket would be likely to grab your arm
I see from your profile that you are a cave diver. Ever been silted out? Ever looked into a car that is underwater in 0 vis that is silted out to see what's inside? In a current? Same thing, but in a current. What kind of debris is in the car? Are there books, toys, CDs and a bunch of other crap floating around everywhere? The only way you are going to look is with your hands. If you want to "look" into that car, you're going in. Which window are you going to break, because it's going to matter.

2a: found someone? call for help
Found someone? Alive and conscious? I'm not calling for help, I'm giving the victim a regulator, and probably calming his ass down so he doesn't kill both of us, in that car in 0 vis, underwater. God, I hope he doesn't think I'm an alligator. Hopefully, my communications don't LOS when I enter the car and I can actually talk to my team still. Can I even fit a third person in this car in 0 vis, underwater, in a current? Supposedly, I'm trained at this. Would another person help or hurt the situation? And, BTW, underwater communications aren't exactly sprint clear, and there tends to be lots of ambient noises, buddy phone noises, and other distractions. Communications under this type of situation is not trivial.

3. stay on the upstream side in case there toxins being released from the car
Ummm. If you're searching the car, you're not staying on the upstream side. What if your victim is on the downstream side? How likely is that, in a current? You can't do half a job and call yourself a professional. You're going to get contaminated on this call. the fire department has excellent decontaminates, and I can usually make a couple of bucks making them pay to hose down my divers. For some reason, they love this.

4. when search is complete, make a brief excursion to the downstream side to check for any bodies
Yeah, might as well take a brief excursion while I'm at it, gotta get at least an hour on the clock. You gonna pull the car?

total time: roughly 2 minutes (after finding the car)...why would you be in a hurry?

I agree. I totally carry a couple of beers in my BC just in case of the odd time out.

as I suspected, you took my post out of context. I was referring to the incident in this thread, and specifically about searching the car and not finding the conscious victim breathing in an air pocket. As such, my post started on the presumption that the decision to search the car had already been made. Air pockets able to sustain human life have great visibility.

I do appreciate the well thought out response though...much better than the previous posts that sounded like a a hissy fit. The only point I was making with my original post was that if you are going to search the car, then search the car. I agree that my post was over simplified, and that was on purpose as I don't see any reason to hash out a complete hypothetical plan in an internet forum.
 
No. Absolutely incorrect. .
Well you should certainly know


because this is also also absolutely incorrect
So to sum up what we have learned :

This guy is doing nothing wrong, the legal system is the culprit because the current laws require someone to sue inncent people in order to be able to sue guilty people, the innocent just get caught up in our legal system, have to spend money to defend themselves, tax money is wasted.. etc.. etc.. etc..

... and that's A-okay.



And this is quite clever, a nifty bit of absurd exaggerated sarcasm maybe you have a career as a comedy writer

or a political pollster Ever heard of a push poll :idk:?

Is this correct?

A) It's okay, I like it this way just fine
B) It's okay, but I really don't like it, but the alternative is Russia, there is no common sense middle ground like fixing it, only Russia is the only outcome if any changes are made.
C) It's not okay and only idiots would ever choose any choice other than C.
I knew you could be much more creative then just blaming it on "Boulder" :banana:

---------- Post added March 14th, 2014 at 04:01 PM ----------

What is correct is there are way way more facts absent then present about what actually happened .

And rushing to judgement in any perspective is premature at best.
 
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